$#!&%# Boring Issues!

You have several issues going on here that are causing you grief. First, it doesn't look from your pics that the cutting tool has enough clearance under the cutting edge, which why you need to raise it above the centerline of the part. Increase the clearance angle enough by grinding that you don't need to raise the tool. Also make sure that only the tip of the boring bar touches the work. You may need to angle the bar a bit to accomplish that. Second, the rpm you are running is good for high speed tooling, carbide needs to be run MUCH faster. For instance, the cutting speed of carbide on O1 (drill rod) is about 500 sfpm. That means you should be boring at 3200 rpm, not 500. Regrind your tool and crank up the speed. Your surface finish should improve dramatically.

BTW, I am not a big fan of carbide in the home shop. High speed steel is easier to use, more economical and much more forgiving than carbide.

Tom
 
It's official; boring is now my least favorite machining activity, supplanting even the dreaded parting off!

Most of the projects I've worked on to date haven't really required boring. I've done a few; a 1/4 inch deep, three-inch hole in a Lexan disk, a 3/4 inch hole in an aluminum rod about one inch deep, and now I need a 5/8 inch through-hole in a 7/8 inch deep piece of 1.25 inch drill rod. I first drilled it to 1/2 inch diameter, and then started boring using (inexpensive) carbide boring bars, though I don't know if the carbide makes any difference. I have very little experience with carbide, but I do know that it likes to run somewhat faster than HSS, so I've tried speeds from 250 up to 500 RPM.

My biggest problem has been adjusting the tool to avoid rubbing. The cutter is located slightly above center. I'm taking very light cuts (.005 inches per pass) but I seem to need to reset the tool every few passes because it's rubbing again and you can feel resistance while moving the carriage. I had expected the opposite; that the rubbing would be less of an issue as the hole opened up. Though, in fairness, the 1/2 inch hole is now about .560 inches, so there hasn't been very much opening up! I stopped because I wanted to get as good a finish as possible and didn't want to ruin the part.

My second problem is the finish, which is unpredictable. I'm cutting as I enter the part, and then I cut again (without changing the depth) on the way out. I've read that this will prevent or minimize bell-mouth. Sometimes the finish looks fine. Other times, it looks like grooves have formed at certain points. Sometimes I can hear something odd going on while cutting; it almost sounds like something's bouncing around randomly inside the part. I'm using the shortest boring bar that will reach all the way through the part with the smallest cutting surface due to the small initial diameter of the hole.

Since boring is considered a rudimentary lathe skill, I'd like to really learn what I'm doing wrong here. Can anyone shed some light or provide some suggestions? I appreciate any input!

The second question is tool pressure. The force used to bore is pushing the bar away from the cutting surface. If I was machining this I would use a tool bit with clearances on the face and side to rough bore the hole. The face of the bit does the cutting. Since the depth you mentioned is less than an inch. Then I would use the boring bar to finish. We didn't learn it over-night. Just be careful not to crash the tooling. Best of Luck
 
Here's the straight dope: First of all,you have a very light lathe. It looks like a HF type 7". (I'd only ever use HSS tooling in it for reasons described below.)

Second: Carbide is not the magic answer. It is never as sharp as HSS can get. It is adding to your problem,and it would be best if you use HSS boring bars on a light lathe. You are using the wrong form of boring bar anyway. Those are really for boring heads in a mill. Explanation below.

Third: Carbide does not cut as smoothly as HSS because it isn't sharp enough. There are certain inserts that are sharp,but they are for softer metals. Carbide is too brittle to keep a sharp edge in steel.

Fourth: Those cheaper carbide cutters are not really ready to use right out of the box. They need to be honed sharper. I have diamond grinders down to 3000 grit. You might get by with a CERAMIC sharpening stone. They are hard enough to hone carbide. Softer stones won't. DON't try getting by with a diamond stone. Unless it is VERY fine,it won't leave a sharp enough edge. I use Spyderco ceramic stones. I have a black one,and a finer white one. Woodcraft Supply sells a smaller size pink colored fine ceramic stone about the size of a playing card. You need to hone those carbide cutters sharp.
I seldom use carbide,unless I'm taking a cut across the face plate. Cast iron does wear HSS before I can get all the way across a 16" face plate. Most of the time,I'm using HSS. It is easy to re grind and re hone. To tell the truth,most home shop lathes are not able to push carbide to its full usefulness anyway.

Fifth: If you experiment some,you can learn how to grind a HSS lathe tool,especially a boring bar,so that it wants to suck into the cut as much as it wants to be pushed out of it. This takes experience. At least,grind a small dip on the top of your HSS boring bar so that there is a sharper cutting edge presented. The flat tops on those carbide boring bars are NOT helping you AT ALL.As seen from the top,grind the HSS tool so that the corner that cuts is the foremost edge that is presented to the work. Grind a little angle on the tool. Don't overdo it,you don't want the boring bar sucking right into the hole and breaking off,or damaging your light lathe chuck.

Sixth: Do not let any more boring bar stick out than absolutely necessary. It will then be as rigid as it can be. The style of boring bar you're using,with that tapered shank,gives you no way to adjust the amount of tool overhanging. A perfectly good HSS boring bar can be ground out from a 3/8" square lathe tool. Grind the middle area of the lathe tool thinner,so you have a teat on the cutting end,that you can sharpen into a cutter. Pros often make these small boring bars from HSS lathe tools. I use them a lot. You can also buy longer length HSS lathe tools if as regular one isn't long enough. Or,if the hole is large enough,make a boring bar as shown above by GK1918,that you can put a small 1/8" square broken off lathe tool into.

Although your lathe is small,if you have the experience,you can do good work on it.

Seventh: Tighten up the gibs on your compound,and on the cross slide while boring. This is more necessary on a light lathe more than on a larger one. The little lathe is only so rigid to begin with. DO TIGHTEN the gibs. Make them snug enough that you can turn the handles,but with a little resistance. You can and should loosen them back to normal when you are done boring. The gibs being too loose can also make trouble with cutting off. When I had an Atlas 12" lathe,cutting off was not my favorite job. And,the Atlas was a much heavier one than yours.
 
Re: $#!&%# Boring Issues!

Well, I finally managed to get my hole bored, but I'm still not happy. I'm disappointed in the finish, which is not critical in this particular part, fortunately. In the end, I knew I had rubbing against the front face, so I tried to use some diamond hones (inexpensive ones I would normally use to touch up HSS tools) and got a little improvement in the relief, but not nearly enough. I tried setting the the boring bar a little higher, but a close examination showed I STILL had rubbing. I ended up having to go up about .020" from center before it cut. I ran the speed up to 1500 RPM but this didn't seem to help much. The biggest advantage was when I canted the tool about 3-4°. This, combined with increasing the speed to 1000 RPM, setting the top surface .020" high, and taking cuts of .010 inches finally let me get the job done.

Just to clarify one point... it was never my desire to use a carbide boring tool specifically, but these were the only boring tools I found initially for use with my 7 x 14 RB lathe. HSS has always worked great for everything that I've machined, so I'm going to have to make up some HSS boring tools and learn how to use them.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and help with this task. I've learned a lot but need a lot of hands on experience to perfect my technique...

- - - Updated - - -

You have several issues going on here that are causing you grief. First, it doesn't look from your pics that the cutting tool has enough clearance under the cutting edge, which why you need to raise it above the centerline of the part. Increase the clearance angle enough by grinding that you don't need to raise the tool. Also make sure that only the tip of the boring bar touches the work. You may need to angle the bar a bit to accomplish that. Second, the rpm you are running is good for high speed tooling, carbide needs to be run MUCH faster. For instance, the cutting speed of carbide on O1 (drill rod) is about 500 sfpm. That means you should be boring at 3200 rpm, not 500. Regrind your tool and crank up the speed. Your surface finish should improve dramatically.

BTW, I am not a big fan of carbide in the home shop. High speed steel is easier to use, more economical and much more forgiving than carbide.

Tom

Thanks, Tom... in the end, I had to raise the tool, raise the speed and angle the bar slightly. I didn't have the proper wheel to regrind the tool properly.

I've decided I agree with you about carbide, at least with my small equipment...

- - - Updated - - -

The second question is tool pressure. The force used to bore is pushing the bar away from the cutting surface. If I was machining this I would use a tool bit with clearances on the face and side to rough bore the hole. The face of the bit does the cutting. Since the depth you mentioned is less than an inch. Then I would use the boring bar to finish. We didn't learn it over-night. Just be careful not to crash the tooling. Best of Luck

Bill,

I finally realized that the bar is flexing slightly. In some of the cuts, they would start well, and then half-way in, stop cutting. I could actually see some of the flex. Thanks for the encouragement!
 
Here's the straight dope: First of all,you have a very light lathe. It looks like a HF type 7". (I'd only ever use HSS tooling in it for reasons described below.)

Second: Carbide is not the magic answer. It is never as sharp as HSS can get. It is adding to your problem,and it would be best if you use HSS boring bars on a light lathe. You are using the wrong form of boring bar anyway. Those are really for boring heads in a mill. Explanation below.

Third: Carbide does not cut as smoothly as HSS because it isn't sharp enough. There are certain inserts that are sharp,but they are for softer metals. Carbide is too brittle to keep a sharp edge in steel.

Fourth: Those cheaper carbide cutters are not really ready to use right out of the box. They need to be honed sharper. I have diamond grinders down to 3000 grit. You might get by with a CERAMIC sharpening stone. They are hard enough to hone carbide. Softer stones won't. DON't try getting by with a diamond stone. Unless it is VERY fine,it won't leave a sharp enough edge. I use Spyderco ceramic stones. I have a black one,and a finer white one. Woodcraft Supply sells a smaller size pink colored fine ceramic stone about the size of a playing card. You need to hone those carbide cutters sharp.
I seldom use carbide,unless I'm taking a cut across the face plate. Cast iron does wear HSS before I can get all the way across a 16" face plate. Most of the time,I'm using HSS. It is easy to re grind and re hone. To tell the truth,most home shop lathes are not able to push carbide to its full usefulness anyway.

Fifth: If you experiment some,you can learn how to grind a HSS lathe tool,especially a boring bar,so that it wants to suck into the cut as much as it wants to be pushed out of it. This takes experience. At least,grind a small dip on the top of your HSS boring bar so that there is a sharper cutting edge presented. The flat tops on those carbide boring bars are NOT helping you AT ALL.As seen from the top,grind the HSS tool so that the corner that cuts is the foremost edge that is presented to the work. Grind a little angle on the tool. Don't overdo it,you don't want the boring bar sucking right into the hole and breaking off,or damaging your light lathe chuck.

Sixth: Do not let any more boring bar stick out than absolutely necessary. It will then be as rigid as it can be. The style of boring bar you're using,with that tapered shank,gives you no way to adjust the amount of tool overhanging. A perfectly good HSS boring bar can be ground out from a 3/8" square lathe tool. Grind the middle area of the lathe tool thinner,so you have a teat on the cutting end,that you can sharpen into a cutter. Pros often make these small boring bars from HSS lathe tools. I use them a lot. You can also buy longer length HSS lathe tools if as regular one isn't long enough. Or,if the hole is large enough,make a boring bar as shown above by GK1918,that you can put a small 1/8" square broken off lathe tool into.

Although your lathe is small,if you have the experience,you can do good work on it.

Seventh: Tighten up the gibs on your compound,and on the cross slide while boring. This is more necessary on a light lathe more than on a larger one. The little lathe is only so rigid to begin with. DO TIGHTEN the gibs. Make them snug enough that you can turn the handles,but with a little resistance. You can and should loosen them back to normal when you are done boring. The gibs being too loose can also make trouble with cutting off. When I had an Atlas 12" lathe,cutting off was not my favorite job. And,the Atlas was a much heavier one than yours.

George,

First, thanks for the very detailed and informative reply!

The lathe is a 7 x 14 Real Bull type, similar to the Harbor Freight types. The only time I've ever used carbide with it is with these [expletive deleted] boring bars. I only bought them because they were recommended for use with my lathe; I had no specific desire to use carbide.

I noticed that the carbide tools were not as sharp as HSS and wondered about that.

When I read your fifth point, I suddenly realized the reason the top surface is angled; to pull the cutting edge into the work! I've ground numerous cutting tools for turning the OD of the work, and never really thought about it.

Re your sixth point, I am going to try grinding such a tool so I have it when I need it. Would it be possible for you to post a couple of photos just to give me a clearer idea of how it should look?

I did tighten the gibs on cross-slide and compound; at least that was right.

I guess it's all a learning experience, and I (being an engineer, especially) really appreciate your detailed explanation to help me learn!
 
Charlie!

I'm a little late coming here- but what size bar can you hold? I think I have a spare bar that will hold a 3/16 round bar or 1/8 square- and I have a 1/8 inch toolbit too.

Bernie
 
That's the nice thing about using HSS, you don't need a boring bar to bore. Just grab a tool bit, step over to the grinder and make yourself a boring bar. It'll work much better than that carbide one you've been using, and you won't have to wait around to get it.

Tom
 
Re: $#!&%# Boring Issues!

Charlie!

I'm a little late coming here- but what size bar can you hold? I think I have a spare bar that will hold a 3/16 round bar or 1/8 square- and I have a 1/8 inch toolbit too.

Bernie

Hi, Bernie,

Many thanks for the offer, but I think I should try grinding one first, if nothing else for the learning experience!

- - - Updated - - -

That's the nice thing about using HSS, you don't need a boring bar to bore. Just grab a tool bit, step over to the grinder and make yourself a boring bar. It'll work much better than that carbide one you've been using, and you won't have to wait around to get it.

Tom

And I happen to have lots of HSS blanks around!
 
This type of carbide boring tool is also available in high speed steel; I think you'd be happier with a tool that could be sharpened easily and cuts freely. Personally, I do not use this type of tool for boring in the lathe, as has been already noted, they have little or no back rake or side rake; I use form relieved boring tools, such as Bokum makes; they are sharpened ONLY on the top, radially with some back rake, then rotated in the holder to put the radial line of the bit level with the axis of the lathe; they are made on an angled lead and 90 degree style for through and flat bottomed bores, and OH, I never bore coming back out of a hole NEVER and I have never heard of any machinist doing so, it just is not done.
 
I never bore coming back out of a hole NEVER and I have never heard of any machinist doing so, it just is not done.

Hmmm, guess I better turn in my card because I always finish a bore by taking several spring cuts in both directions. It takes the spring out of the bar resulting in a precise bore and produces a nice finish. The only caveat is that the bar can sometimes chatter on the way out due to the extra cutting edge in contact with the work, but that can normally be remedied by shifting the rpm a bit. I'm curious as to why are you so vehemently against the technique.

Tom
 
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