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Advice on a Craigslist Atlas 618

wa5cab

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#31
To flesh out what I wrote about the Sears versions of the Atlas 6" Mk1, the actual 618 was made from 1937 to 1972 with Timken bearings and 1"-10 spindle nose. The reference several places on the Internet about the early 618's having 1"-8 spindle nose threads is simply wrong. The 618 never and anything but 1"-10. And there was no change to the 618 spindle in 1958.

The confusion is between the early Atlas 618's and the Craftsman 101.07301, caused in part by people erroneously calling it a 618. For whatever reason but no doubt because someone at Sears insisted, the 101.07301 alone had the 1"-8 spindle threads. It was made from 1939 through mid-1957 (not 1958). The differences between it and the Atlas 618 are (or were originally) only in the headstock, bed and legs. It had Oilite sleeve spindle bearings. So the rest of the spindle was also different. And it had a ball thrust bearing similar to that used in the Atlas 9" and in the 10" models supplied with babbit bearings. The headstock casting, cover, spindle gear spacer and spindle pulley bushings are also different. The bed was different (because it had to mount a different headstock). And the legs were different (because Sears wanted them different). The remainder of the headstock and all other parts on the machine were when the lathe came out the same as on the 618.

I haven't yet pinned down the year, but possibly as early as 1940 Atlas made the 3rd and final change to the countershaft assembly on the 618 (the first version attached to the headstock instead of to the bench or stand and was only made for a couple of years), It changed from having a short bracket with the countershaft hanger sticking up to a taller curved bracket with the hanger hanging down from its pivot point on the bracket (quite similar to the one used on all of the 10F's). For whatever reason, the same change was never made to the 101.07301 (although they are often found today with the later countershaft, at least in part because an owner somewhere over the years acquired the lathe without a countershaft and bought the later version either because he wanted to or because it was more plentiful.

Atlas ceased production of the 101.07301 in mid 1957 and replaced it with the 101.21400. The 101.21400 is identical to the Atlas 618 except for having Craftsman badges. So it is at least approximately correct to say that there are two versions of the Craftsman Mk1 - the 101.07301 and the 101.21400. And the earlier model was the one that had 1"-8 spindle nose threads. But it is totally incorrect to call it a 618.
 

Superburban

Active Member
Active Member
#32
Yes, that is where my confusion came from, I thought the 618, and craftsman were the same thing. Both of my Mk1's, are craftsman's. When I wrote to clausing many years ago, they gave me all the information that was labeled as Atlas 618's.

here is what Clausing sent me, indicating the 101.07301 was made late 30' to late 40's. and my MK2, was around the 60's. I always thought the MK2, came out in the mid 70's.

George,
Copies of the information requested attached - regret can not tell you the manufacture dates as the serial number records were not kept - the 07301 would've been in the late 1930's to mid late 1940's and the 3950 likely 1960's.
Regret we do not have a published price list at this time - if you advise items required we will be happy to check and advise.
Best regards,

Jolene (Jo) Olds
Customer Service Manager

1819 N Pitcher St
Kalamazoo, MI 49007
 

wa5cab

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#33
George,

From late 1957 on, the Craftsman model was a 618. But Jo had the dates off a little. I have scans (courtesy of a place once called Rose Antique Tools) of all of the Craftsman Power Tools catalogs from 1931 through 1972/73 and originals from then through 1982 (the year after Atlas lathe production ceased). The 101.07301 was as I wrote earlier (all years are Catalog Year), 1939 through 1957 (early). The 101.21400 (which as I said is a 618 with Craftsman nameplates) first appeared in the Fall 1957 Big Book. And last appeared in the 1972/3 Power Tools Catalog. It was replaced in late '72 by the 101.21200, which was an Atlas 3950 (6" Mk2) with Craftsman nameplates. The 101.21200 appears in the 1973/74 through 1976/77 catalogs. And not in the 1977/78.

The 3950 and 101.21200 had a ball bearing spindle and cast iron headstock. In early production, except for the bed and legs, the rest of it was the same as the 618 except no countershaft. And the bed had a different part number because the headstock mounting hole pattern was different on the Mk2. Sometime in 1977, the 3950 was replaced by the 10100 (with Timken bearings). And still with cast iron headstock. There is no evidence that Sears ever sold the 10100. So all Craftsman Mk2's should have ball bearings.

One other thing on the Lathes UK site that is a little misleading is that there is an implication in one place that the first Mk2's had Zamak headstocks. This is not correct. Only the last few hundred had Zamak.
 

tinnerjohn

Iron
Registered Member
#34
SuperTroye & I just struck a deal on the armature set. I printed the instructions from the Vintage Machinery website. None of my starters or generators are safe now. I remember watching an old guy (he was probably 50 or so, I'm 60 now) when I was 17 turn the generator armature for my 49 Ford F1. He wiped off everything he touched before and after using and turned it in what was probably a South Bend 9 or 10. My dream is now coming true. Any suggestions where to start looking for saws? I paid a little more than I really hoped, but I know the money is going for a good cause, and the tool will have a good home. I may even make a box to store the parts in! Thank you SuperTroye!
 

Superburban

Active Member
Active Member
#35
E-mail clausing. They have been responsive to my e-mails. If they don't have the saws, maybe they could give you the specs. I think you mainly need the inside diameter (which you could get when you recieve the cutter), and the thickness.

info@clausingsc.com
I was also looking, and thinking. Glad it is going to a good home. Looking forward to the pictures.

Many years ago, I had a small hand saw for cutting the armatures, Took awhile, but still did the job.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#36
Hi All and thanks TinnerJohn... didn't know you were here. Have fun with the armature set. I love that these old tools are still very much needed!
 

wa5cab

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#37
The slitting saws for the armature undercutter are relatively expensive, probably because they are quite small and there isn't as much demand as there once was. I have an NOS set. If Clausing doesn't still have them and can't supply the dimensions. let me know.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#38
I've taken everything apart, degreased and getting ready for paint. Can someone tell me how to remove the carriage rack?

IMG_5188.JPG

It looks like there are 2 locating pins that either need to be punched out, or come out with the rack.
IMG_5189.JPG

IMG_5190.JPG

The manual from Atlas doesn't appear to show anything about these pins.

2017-06-07_222407.jpg


I don't want to resort to prying it. But, I would be grateful if someone can help guide me to remove it.

Thanks!
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#39
Ok I did a google search and saw someone on YouTube gently tap in a razor blade behind the rack to act as a wedge and got it out. All is well. On to painting soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

wa5cab

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#41
Another possibility, if you don't have a single-edge blade to expend, is to use a bench grinder to sharpen the end of a typical 1" wide putty knife. If you use this, after the grinder, lay a flat file down flat on the back side of the blade and push it away from the handle two or three times to remove the burr. Advantage of the putty knife is that it is less likely to break off while trying to get it back out. And after lifting both ends, you can tap a second putty knife sideways into the gap as a shim and do the operation again to double the gap. After that, you should be able to get a pry bar into the gap to pull it on off. Pull it a little at a time at each end so as not to bend the taper pins. And when you are ready to reinstall, it should go back into exactly the same place.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#42
Another possibility, if you don't have a single-edge blade to expend, is to use a bench grinder to sharpen the end of a typical 1" wide putty knife. If you use this, after the grinder, lay a flat file down flat on the back side of the blade and push it away from the handle two or three times to remove the burr. Advantage of the putty knife is that it is less likely to break off while trying to get it back out. And after lifting both ends, you can tap a second putty knife sideways into the gap as a shim and do the operation again to double the gap. After that, you should be able to get a pry bar into the gap to pull it on off. Pull it a little at a time at each end so as not to bend the taper pins. And when you are ready to reinstall, it should go back into exactly the same place.
wa5cab... I am grateful and humbled by your knowledge and willingness to make sure it gets passed on. Thank you for taking the time to explain and help!

I should probably start another restore thread, but I've made progress with the clean up. I cleaned the bed: de-greased, de-rusted with electrolysis, stripped remaining paint and de-rusted again with electrolysis. Here she is in all her glory (with a thumbs up from the wife).

IMG_5197.JPG

IMG_5199.JPG

I started painting a few pieces with Krylon Machinery Gray rattle can:
IMG_5200.JPG

IMG_5203.JPG

IMG_5204.JPG

I've already de-greased the gears, but want to get them cleaner. I soaked these in laquer thinner overnight and did nothing to lift and dissolve the stains.

IMG_5207.JPG

IMG_5208.JPG

Question: is CLR (Calcium, Lime, & Rust Remover) safe for cleaning ZAMAK gears? Has anyone ever tried it? I believe that it is bad for aluminum, but because of the mix of metals it may be ok?

Any advice on cleaning these gears would be appreciated.
 
Last edited:

wa5cab

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#43
I don't have any idea on the CLR question. But if the gears are clean, I wouldn't worry about the stains. Removing them certainly won't make the machine run any better. However, bead blasting would probably be the most effective. If you do that, be sure to plug the bores and don't let the bead stream touch the teeth or bore.

I hope that you removed the screw, spring, detent ball and direct drive pin before you soaked the bull gear.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#44
I don't have any idea on the CLR question. But if the gears are clean, I wouldn't worry about the stains. Removing them certainly won't make the machine run any better. However, bead blasting would probably be the most effective. If you do that, be sure to plug the bores and don't let the bead stream touch the teeth or bore.

I hope that you removed the screw, spring, detent ball and direct drive pin before you soaked the bull gear.

Sorry for the lag, I removed everything before soaking. Now I am confused about putting it back together. For the bullwheel, what is the order of reassembly?

Insert pin, insert ball, insert spring, then screw?
 

wa5cab

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#45
Go to DOWNLOADS and from the A/C Lathe Manuals Category download REV 4 of the 1950 6" parts manual. Then go to the A/C Lathe Repairs & Technical Bulletins Category and download REV 2 of the 6" back gears and spindle bulletin, REV 2. The latter tells you how to take it apart. Reverse the procedures to reassemble. DON'T FORGET THE BELT.

If you removed the inner dust shields, reinstall them first. Put the notch in the front one at 12:00 o'clock (approximately). The front outer shield should have come off with the spindle, driven by the front bearing cone. It can be put in at any time after the spindle is back in the headstock.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#46
Many thanks Robert, this has solved my problems.

Now I think I have another. I'm putting the carriage back together and noticed there is an oil hole that looks like it's used to lubricate the cross slide screw.

IMG_5237.JPG

However, the bearing looks like its turned 180 degrees from where the hole needs to be for the oil to reach the screw. Can anyone confirm this is how you are supposed to oil the carriage slide screw?

IMG_5240.JPG

If so, and I need to rotate the bearing 180 degrees , how do I do this? It looks like a press fit, and it looks like its gonna be a challenge to do this.
 

Superburban

Active Member
Active Member
#47
Drop some oil in the hole, and see how long it takes to get inside. I have seen some bearings with a groove on the outside, so that it sorta controls how fast the oil drips down. I can't imagine Atlas going that far.

Instead of trying to line up the hole, I would just drill a new ho;e. What size is the question.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#48
Drop some oil in the hole, and see how long it takes to get inside. I have seen some bearings with a groove on the outside, so that it sorta controls how fast the oil drips down. I can't imagine Atlas going that far.

Instead of trying to line up the hole, I would just drill a new ho;e. What size is the question.
It's a great suggestion, I'll try it. It's just been freshly painted and probably won't be until next week until I'm ready for that test.

Your other suggestion is a good one. The hole looks a little smaller than 1/8". I'll wait to see if the oil hole actually produces anything before I drill a hole.
 

wa5cab

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#49
The bearing is threaded and screws into the carriage, same as on the 10" and both 12" families. If you look carefully, you may find a second oil hole in line with the first. There is adequate thread clearance for SAE20 to flow down to the holes and in to the screw. I know that on my 12", after about four squirts, oil will be visible between the dial and bearing face. You do not need to drill any more holes.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#50
Ok, on to the last (I hope) issue in reassembly. I put the headstock completely back together and started turning a test piece. After a pass, the spindle became insanely loose. So, I tightened the collar at the other end and it seemed ok. But, there were like 3-4 threads visible after tightening.

So, I took apart the headstock to troubleshoot the problem. I noticed the bearing is not completely seated against the flange/stop (not sure what to call it).

IMG_5320-1.JPG

I remember it looked like this when I disassembled it initially a month ago. I'm not sure if this happened when I was tapping the spindle out and the bearing was held tightly in the headstock?

Anyways, what is the best way to press the bearing against the stop? I have a shop press, various soft hammers and other means. Just want to do it the right way. As always, any advice is much, much appreciated. Thanks!
 

wa5cab

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#51
First, when speaking or writing about a normal tapered roller bearing, you should use the terms Cup and Cone unless you are speaking or writing about the two together.

The inner race of the cone should be pressed solidly up against the shoulder of the register flange BEFORE you start the installation of the spindle into the headstock. When you drive the spindle out of the headstock, the large cone brings the right dust cover out with it. It is possible that that's what moved the large cone away from the shoulder. But if when you put it back together your first time, the threaded collar ended up in about the same place as it was when you took it apart your first time, it wasn't put together right the last time before you bought it.

I don't know the diameters involved but step 1 is to get someone to machine an installer from a piece of heavy wall mechanical tubing with an ID at the end that's going to be pushing against the cone inner race of 0.010" to 0.030" larger than the ID of the large cone. Length over all should be 1" to 2" longer than from the cone inner race to the end of the spindle with the cone against the shoulder. And make a shouldered disk same OD as the tubing and slip fit in the ID at the pushing end to use to push against.

Put your spindle nose thread protector on the spindle nose and take spindle and installer to someone with a 25 ton or larger hydraulic press and get them to push the bearing against the shoulder.

Then put the thing back together following the instructions in the 6" headstock Technical Bulletin in Dowhloads.
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#52
First, when speaking or writing about a normal tapered roller bearing, you should use the terms Cup and Cone unless you are speaking or writing about the two together.

The inner race of the cone should be pressed solidly up against the shoulder of the register flange BEFORE you start the installation of the spindle into the headstock. When you drive the spindle out of the headstock, the large cone brings the right dust cover out with it. It is possible that that's what moved the large cone away from the shoulder. But if when you put it back together your first time, the threaded collar ended up in about the same place as it was when you took it apart your first time, it wasn't put together right the last time before you bought it.

I don't know the diameters involved but step 1 is to get someone to machine an installer from a piece of heavy wall mechanical tubing with an ID at the end that's going to be pushing against the cone inner race of 0.010" to 0.030" larger than the ID of the large cone. Length over all should be 1" to 2" longer than from the cone inner race to the end of the spindle with the cone against the shoulder. And make a shouldered disk same OD as the tubing and slip fit in the ID at the pushing end to use to push against.

Put your spindle nose thread protector on the spindle nose and take spindle and installer to someone with a 25 ton or larger hydraulic press and get them to push the bearing against the shoulder.

Then put the thing back together following the instructions in the 6" headstock Technical Bulletin in Dowhloads.
Thank you very much... you have been the single best resource on this subject. I'm grateful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

SuperTroye

Steel
Registered Member
#53
Ok after reading your suggestion, I had some pipe that fit the bill. It was supported on both ends and took very little pressure from the press to move it back to the shoulder (I was using my finger to increase the ram on my shop press). Anyways, all is well and put back together and running smoothly. I was surprised it too so little pressure. I don't know if that's a bad thing, but it works.
 

wa5cab

Downloads Moderator
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#54
OK. That sounds all OK The large spindle bearing cone is supposed to be a light press fit on the spindle. I was afraid that it was tighter than that.
 

mmcmdl

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#55
Nice thread Troye . I'm picking up an identical lathe to your's this weekend . It's fully tooled also . I'm following your progress . Dave .
 

NCpatrol

Iron
Registered Member
#56
Heh...I know that machine. It was for sale in Farmville or Powhatan or somewhere in that area. I had talked to the seller when it was listed and if he hadn't been out of town that weekend I was driving up to Richmond and back, it probably would have ended up in my garage! :) That was a sweet deal you got!