Achieving reproducibility

Mitch Alsup

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This post is a question about how to achieve repeatability--making several parts fit the same blueprint.

But first some background::

I am building several telescopes from 13" to 20" to 30" diameter apertures. I bought my milling machine and lathe in order to be able to hit better accuracies, I also bought some dial indicators, calipers, a set of micrometers, and a few other things of metrology. In many respects, I am doing "all right" and in a few I keep running into the "how did that happen" category. All of the machined material in this post is 6061T6 of extruded bar stock.

The 13" mirror cell has 6-points that through the back side of the mirror. These 6 points are on 3 balance beams. In rough numbers the beams are 4.2" long, 0.600" wide, and 0.500" tall. I can routinely rough 3/4*3/4 stock into the required dimensions within 0.0015" measured at 9 places around the parts and have 3 parts that are all within 0.0005 to 0.0015 of each other. All well and good.

At both ends of the beam I drill (0.4375) trying to get both holes exactly 3.902" apart (or as close as I can make them). After drilling and without moving the part, I switch from drilling to the boring head and bore the hole to 0.468 which is a "bearing fit" to the 12mm ball transfers that touch the back side of the mirror at very low friction levels. I start with beams that are long enough that the accuracy of the holes on (say) the left end of the beam are not critical as long as these holes are the same away from that end of the beam. When the part goes into the vise, it is supported on parallels and another parallel is clamped to the vise so that the left edge of the part can be positioned easily. The bored holes have been measured with a snap gauge and the micrometers and I am seeing a similar 0.0015"-0.002" variation in the bearing fits of these holes.

After drilling and boring all three beams, I position the table so that it has moved 3.902". I confirm this by making the first hole in a sacrificial material and measure the near sides and far sides of said hole, the average of which is the center to center distances. These are all measured with a dial caliper. I then clamp down the table, insert each part, drill and bore each part. After wards, I measure the overhang off the ends of the part and edge mill the beams to final length centered around the bored holes.

At this point I have 3 parts: one with 3.9025" hole spacing, one with 3.9015" hole spacing, and one with 3.899" hole spacing. While this is better than is probably needed for the project at hand, If anyone can help me locate the point at which I lead error creep into the machine process I would be appreciative.

After milling the beams to length such that the material from the far end of the hole to the edge of the beam is "the same" (about 0.016" as accurately as I can measure it), I use the beam length to find the center of the beam and drill an axial hole perpendicularly through the beam. I proceed to drill a hole using a C drill (0.242") backed up with a D drill to 0.110 depth. This D drill is a nice thumb bearing fit to the miniature ball bearings (1/4×1/8×7/64) that are needed on this balance beam. The problem, here, is that the drilled hole walks about 0.002" while passing through the beam. This puts the axis off center of the beam, and makes balancing the beam in 2 dimensions extraordinarily hard. Here the question is how does one get holes on one side of a part to match up to a hole on the other side of the part to (say) 1/2 a thou? at these tiny dimensions? how does one bore a bearing fit at this kind of dimension (I don't know where to get the tooling to do bores at this size)?

The numbers above are after making this set of beams 3 times and learning the more obvious mistakes of part positioning and tolerance stackups. As I said, the current parts are usable, but future machine parts will not be so tolerant of litter errors of part position prior to machining.

Thanks in advance.
 
Mitch I'm having trouble visualizing the parts, can you post a picture? Then we could better advise on your method
Mark S.
 
All I can offer is “ Howdy Neighbor “
 
Interesting part. I'm making a model radial engine with lots of aluminum components to +/- similar tolerances. Self taught home machinist so beware! I can offer a few observations, maybe some will help. Maybe some you are already doing.

- set a hard stop on one end of the vise so the part always references that datum. This will help when you have to rotate to make the holes on adjacent faces. At least this way, theoretically, if you make one good part you are much closer to replication using same setup

- you didn't mention much about your mill & vise setup. If it has reliable DRO then fine. But if using dials you need consistent lead screw direction to take up backlash. Approach the holes from the same direction part to part. Same goes for vise. Those are close tolerances so vise jaw has to be as aligned to mill travel with DTI as you can make it.

- holes made with boring head will be the most accurate so you are doing that right (assume that's your big holes). Drills are roughing devices.

- if the center drill is the problem hole leading you off, it might be a function of your center drill, the drill itself or chuck/arbor accuracy. I've opted for a carbide center drill similar to this one. Some people recommend specific angles to work with common drill pint angles. So far I'm getting pretty good results with a 90-deg. They are short & very rigid. Make sure your drill is of decent quality. I don't think chip evacuation is much of an issue but certainly an accurate grind is. A stubby length might help. Consider a reamer to clean the hole to specific size because a drilled hole will rarely be perfectly circular. But a reamer will basically just follow a crooked hole.

- really watch for edge burs from machining or surface unconformities that can throw off a setup. I have a plate of glass with standard 600g wet-dry paper taped on. Each part gets a light flattening with WD40. Clean your parallels/vise every time from chips & dust

-if this is a real micro-balancing act where the center relative to outboard holes is the critical thing, maybe re-think the center hole design whereby you have a bushing with some float. Something that would allow you to fiddle it into position on a balance beam or some standard hard gage. then set with permanent locktite designed for this gap width.

Hope this helps a bit. I'd like to see more pics of your components & project

2017-11-23_23-06-02.jpg

SNAG-11-23-2017 0000.jpg
 
My aluminum link rods are kind of a similar issue where I have to ensure equal hole centering & then do other operations out of the vise & onto rotary table. Here I'm referencing off a dowel pin & jig plate for replication. Your holes should lend themselves to vise setup I would think.

IMG_0707_edited-1.jpg

IMG_0710_edited-1.jpg

IMG_0712_edited-1.jpg
 
Mitch,
I think there are too many issues to address in one post. What milling machine are you using and what condition is it in? Equipped with a DRO? Have you verified the table travel readings to known standards? You said you used a snap gage and micrometers to measure the bored holes. I think you mean telescoping gage, not snap gage. Correct?

You are trying to hit some pretty tight tolerances. I'm asking about the machines because it's much harder to hit those tolerances with "loose" equipment. I would never rely on my use of a telescoping gage to .001 accuracy. Some others may be able to do better. YMMV

It may be that a good portion of your perceived error is actually in your measuring equipment and technique.
Can you repeat a measurement 10 times and be satisfied with the range of observations?

Ultimately, every step needs to be reproduced precisely to achieve the tolerances you've specified.
 
Thanks everybody:

State of the machine: New as of july--new as in never used before. It is a Grizzly 8×30. No DRO, no motor drives.

I have verified that the long axis (Y) is spot on, by measuring the spindle travel with a dial indicator and comparing it to the dials on the wheels.
I have verified that the short axis (X) is off (short) by about 0.75%, by measuring the spindle travel with a dial indicator and comparing it to the dials on the wheels. This is about the error one would expect when threading the lead screw on a metric lathe with 84/93 gear ratio.
I have measured the vertical axis (Knee) is spot on, by measuring the spindle travel with a dial indicator and comparing it to the dials on the wheels.
The vise is trammed so that my dial indicator sees more roughness on the vise face surface than it sees tram-error as it moves from side to side. The vise is also trammed so that the top edge of the vise back jaw is also perfectly level with the bed. The ways the vise jaw slides on are off by 0.0015 with the left side lower and flatter and the right side starts off proper than rises by the stated amount. {It actually to me some time to get the vise to this state, it started out off by 0.004 horizontal, but a complete disassembly, cleaning, and careful assembly with dial indicators got it to where it is today.}

The ways are tight, although I have not measured them, and well lubed. The vertical axis is lubed with way oil, the horizontal axes are lube with ISO 68 for better feel at the wheels.

As parts are removed, the vise and parallels are brushed with a chip brush to remove chips and crap, then wiped down to remove oil and dust, before another part is inserted and tapped down.

I do have a stop at the left end of the vise on the non moving jaw (similar to the picture above), but it is clamped on instead of being really solid. All part positioning (above) is done to the back vise jaw and the clamped stop (which is from my box of parallels).

I did start the small hole drilling with a #2 center drill 60º--which has been used to start about 10 holes now.

And, yes, I know these are difficult accuracies to hit, I'm and just trying to figure out where my errors might be coming from. And nothing is off my more than 0.003" so I'm not doing that badly, but I need to get better for the work to come on the larger telescopes.
 
Hopefully you will able to view this link on our local forum with pics (post#10). I bought a Sorensen center mike off ebay & am really impressed with how it works. I suspect the pins might be too big for your part, but maybe get you thinking about measurement in general & where the error is occurring. Sounds like you are doing lots of things right setup wise. The main thing being an independent dial showing table displacement vs relying on your dials. https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/sorensen-center-mike.673/

Based on what you've said I might be out of good ideas beyond integrating something into the design that allows 'tune-able' compensation beyond the limits of your machine/setup. Its too bad your center hole is in a different axis otherwise it could act as an axle pivot so the part would rotate 180-deg to make the 2 larger hole on either side & put to rest displacement measuring error creep.
 
Mitch,

I live in Anderson Mill area, you are welcome to come by and use my Bridgeport, not new as your Grizz, but at least you can compare outcome. My BP has a DRO, I have a good coaxial indicator we can use to measure centerline between holes. No power feed on the knee or the Y, I do have one for X, the L-R.

I just had a knee replacement surgery, if you decide to take me up on my offer, you will have to do all the work.
 
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