80% Lower Legal Question

Jake P

Jake P

H-M Supporter - Gold Member
H-M Supporter Gold Member
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Perhaps someone here can help me find an answer to the following:

Is it legal to assist another person in the completion of an 80% lower?

Situation: My daughter’s boyfriend asked if I could help him machine an 80% lower. We are both residents of and in the state of Idaho and he is of legal age. I am a hobby machinist not engaged in commercial shop work.

When he asked me to help him my immediate response was "Sure!", but then I started wondering about the legality of it. Searching the internet I found the following article: https://gunfightertactical.com/atf-shuts-down-completion-of-80-lowers/

In that article is the following statement: "It is also illegal for a private individual to complete an 80% in their friend or neighbor’s garage using using the friend’s equipment."

The article references the following from the ATF: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download

I have read that ATF document and to my understanding the statement made in the article I linked to is not accurate. It seems to me that this only applies to individuals who are in the business of manufacturing.

So, what is the opinion/knowledge of those of you here who have experience in these matters? Thanks for you input folks, I just want to stay out of trouble!
 
I have no knowledge, but that just seems like too deep an over reach.
if you help, I understand the problem.
But if they borrow your equip and do their own work in your garage, or if you were to deliver your equip to their garage ... what's the diff. So you own the equip.. but it's in their garage. Many companies lease equip.. does that mean they can't do things (in general)?

Just seems like the ATF is interpreting something in a very odd way, or making it up.
 
My general impression is that the ATF is trying to prevent a loophole on licensing FFL activities. I think this is one of those areas where if you asked (or ****** off) the ATF you'd get a "that is not allowed" but it is not something they would normally pursue unless they find you're doing it more than as a one off thing. But note, it is you and not the daughter's boyfriend, who are in violation of the FFL requirements. So if he later gets in trouble with that rifle and it is tracked back to you ...
 
Solution: "I Made It". No other words. No other explanation. Not to anyone.
Do NOT allow them to ask "did you MANUFACTURE this?" Different word; different legal meaning. (of course, you should never talk to them in the first place, but only through your lawyer.)
Your lawyer will tell you that they don't need, deserve, or require any detailed explanation, despite their asking. "I Made It" is your only response. And is the only response of your daughter's boyfriend.
(Regardless, I think I'd wait until he was legally in-the-family before I went down this road WITH him, but that's just me.)
But then, remember too, that by the time they're actually asking you face-to-face, you're in a deep mess already that some little triviality like OBEYING the law is ever gonna cure. By the time they're speaking to you, they will FIND something, even if they have to invent it. They don't ask questions for the fun of it.

Always remember the First Rule of Federal Investigators: "Always tell the truth, even if you have to lie to do it."

I need only point to a number of high-profile "lied to the FBI" cases to illustrate that every word you utter is another shovel of your grave. "I Made It" is your only response. Let your lawyer worry about the rest.
 
Jake P said:
Perhaps someone here can help me find an answer to the following:

Is it legal to assist another person in the completion of an 80% lower?

Situation: My daughter’s boyfriend asked if I could help him machine an 80% lower. We are both residents of and in the state of Idaho and he is of legal age. I am a hobby machinist not engaged in commercial shop work.

When he asked me to help him my immediate response was "Sure!", but then I started wondering about the legality of it. Searching the internet I found the following article: https://gunfightertactical.com/atf-shuts-down-completion-of-80-lowers/

In that article is the following statement: "It is also illegal for a private individual to complete an 80% in their friend or neighbor’s garage using using the friend’s equipment."

The article references the following from the ATF: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download

I have read that ATF document and to my understanding the statement made in the article I linked to is not accurate. It seems to me that this only applies to individuals who are in the business of manufacturing.

So, what is the opinion/knowledge of those of you here who have experience in these matters? Thanks for you input folks, I just want to stay out of trouble!
Click to expand...

First of all, I'm not a Lawyer, ATF Agent or holder of an FFL. The following is free, and worth every penny of the price.

In the ATF Ruling you linked to (Page 2, Para. 2:

The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(1), defines a “person” to include “any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.” Section 921(a)(10), defines a “manufacturer” as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. As defined by section 921(a)(21)(A), the term “engaged in the business” means, as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, “a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.” Because “manufacturing” is not defined by the GCA, courts have relied on the ordinary meaning of the word, including actions to make a product suitable for use.” See, e.g., Broughman v. Carver, 624 F.3d 670, 675 (4th Cir. 2010). Section 921(a)(11)(B) defines a “dealer,” in relevant part, as any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms.” A person meeting this definition is commonly referred to as a “gunsmith.”

My interpretation = If you are not an FFL Gunsmith or manufacturer, and not working on firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured, then you are free to do as you wish in your home hobby shop.

I asked the opinion of a very experienced friend (also not a Lawyer or ATF Agent) who concurs that you are free to loan the use of your equipment if you wish to.

On a different tack, daughter's boyfriends come and go. Apprentice tracks on your tooling and machines are forever. YMMV.
 
I looked into it also, the risk is minuscule for a small fish like you- they have bigger ones to fry
-M
 
A lot of interesting responses so far, but it appears that non of us know the simple yes or no answer to this question. There is most certainly a yes or no answer, legally. I strongly suspect that in this case it's not an issue.

Should someone have that kind of knowledge, that would be much appreciated. Otherwise I will have to dig deeper to find it. Thanks guys!
 
If you perform the work with the intent of giving the lower to him, it is illegal. If he performs the work on your equipment, it is not. Will this be an issue? Only if the weapon is used in a crime or otherwise invites investigation.
 
rwm said:
If you perform the work with the intent of giving the lower to him, it is illegal. If he performs the work on your equipment, it is not. Will this be an issue? Only if the weapon is used in a crime or otherwise invites investigation.
Click to expand...
Robert, thanks for the input. Do you have the reference for that? If it's in the ATF link that I noted, then I'm simply not reading it correctly.
 
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