10 HP engine - refrigerant working fluid

I met an interesting gentleman yesterday who mentioned he worked for NASA in the early stages of the space program. I asked him if he could tell me about any of the projects he worked on and he said sure, he then told me about an engine much as you describe in this thread that ran on mercury as the medium due to the low boiling point and the fact that the mercury would not stick to anything. He said they even got a working model built before someone decided that the risk of sending such potentially dangerous material into the atmosphere was not worth it.

This make me wonder if there were other such thoughts/designs/devices way back when that were simply ahead of their time that have now been forgotten but with some of the advances in technologies today could now make possible?
 
Very interesting concept. IIRC there was a heat exchanger that they incorporated into the Alaska Pipe line that might provide enough differential for your device to work. I think I originally saw a write up about it in Ppular science or Popular Mechanics way back when they were building the pipeline across Alaska. They were using this device on the trestle holding the pipe up off of the permafost to prevent melting since the oil warms the pipe to approx 140 degrees just from the friction of the fluid in the pipe. I think the reason they went the way they did was low maintenance and not requiring outside power to make it work. Then maybe a tesla turbine running on the heated vapor to turn a gen set? Please keep us posted on what you end up doing and your progress. I am extremely interested in any results you get and would love to see some pics as your project progresses. Have a great rest of the weekend and a great Memorial Day too. Oh yeah and Sempi Fi to the USMC members among us.
Bob
 
I've had the same idea, but never put any effort into thinking it through. I google'd "Organic Rankine Cycle (ORC)" and it ended up leading me to a guy's dissertation on this very concept: http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/handle/2268/96436 (please don't take this to mean I understand the content, I don't).

My motivation for thinking about this is the summers in Dallas can be hot. The attic and garage easily get to 120 degrees F. I've wished I could extract the heat from the attic to ***help*** the A/C cool the house. But that is as far as I got.

My father was a petroleum (natural gas) engineer in south Texas in the late 50's through the 60's. He used this idea to drive some fans over a cooling tower. Of course his "waste heat" was probably outrageous and used some environmentally harsh working fluid
.

Evan R.
 
Back in the mid-70's I worked on a project for NASA to develop residential solar powered air conditioning. This was back when NASA was doing development work for DOE. The contract team I was working with (Honeywell, Lenox, Barber-Nichols) developed a 3 hp turbine system that used R-113 for the working fluid. We built about 8 demonstration units that were installed in various government locations around the country. We also built several 25 ton water chillers. The residential system used a small turbine that was geared down 60:1 to 1800 rpm to turn a Ford automotive compressor running an R-12 cycle. The system actually worked quite well, plus it generated electricity when there was not a big cooling demand.

The purpose of the project was to use "off the shelf" components to get the total cost from the aero-space realm down to something the average consumer could justify. The cost part was never successful. There are just too many heat exchangers, controls, gearboxes and and lube systems to get to a viable cost. Another contractor group led by GE used R-12 in both the power cycle and the refrigeration cycle. They used a piston engine instead of a turbine The engine looked very much like a refrigeration compressor. The turbine, of course, ended up being more efficient, but the GE system worked as well. Note: both R-113 and R-12 are being phased out because of their ozone damaging issues, but there are many other fluids that can be used.

The selection of the working fluid is based on what pressure you can stand to operate, whether you are using piston expansion or turbine expansion, and other considerations like corrosion, lubrication, flammability, health safety, etc. The system has to be evacuated (as in a refrigeration system) to remove all air and water vapor before the working fluid is added. Residual oxygen in the system is always a problem, as is any remaining water vapor - both lead to corrosion problems. The system has to be air tight (like your central air system) to keep the working fluid in and the air out. A high quality shaft seal is required on the gearbox or engine to keep the working fluid in the system. The early refrigeration pioneers used nasty fluids like ammonia, ethyl ether, and hydrogen sulfide before the days of the halogen (Freon type) fluids. There are a number of newer halogen fluids that have been developed to replace the older, ozone depleting fluids.

A couple of things to keep in mind with a closed Rankin cycle (these are the cold blanket items):
  1. A heat engine needs a hot sink and a cold sink to run. The cold sink is usually the problem. Unless you have a cool river or stream, you are stuck rejecting heat to the atmosphere. Cooling towers and evaporative condensers are two ways to get the cold sink down to about the ambient wet bulb temp. In the SW states, the wet bulb temps tend to be lower and you can get a lower sink temp in Arizona and places like that. Otherwise the lowest temp you can usually come up with is the ambient dry bulb temp - which is usually in the 80 - 100 deg F range in the summer.
  2. The laws of thermodynamics dictate that the efficiency of a heat engine has to be less than the theoretical Carnot cycle operating at the same temperatures. These are fancy words that say if you only have 100 or 200 deg F between the hot sink and the cold sink, you will be well under 18% efficiency, probably in the 8 - 10% range. This means that to come up with even one horsepower, you have to process a LOT of heat. Makes for big heat exchangers (boilers, condensers, solar collectors, etc.) This is where the high cost comes in.
  3. To give you a rough idea, it takes about 500 square feet of solar collector operating at 180 deg F and a condensing temperature of 80 F to come up with 3 hp on the shaft (mid-day with clear skies).

Another option is to skip the Rankin cycle and use a Stirling cycle which uses air (or another gas) as the working fluid. There have been high hopes for this cycle ever since Robert Stirling proposed in back in 1816. The Stirling cycle can theoretically more closely approach the Carnot efficiency limit than the Rankin cycle. The problem is that it takes a lot of area to transfer heat from a solid to air. That's why the radiator in you car and the coils on your home air conditioner are filled with fins. There are kits for small Stirling engines that run off the heat of a cup of coffee or even the heat from your hand, but they only develop enough power to overcome their own internal friction. Just like the Rankin cycle, with only 200 deg F or so between the hot and cold sink, it takes huge heat exchangers to develop any amount of horsepower.

There were a number of Stirling engine builders in the late 19th century that supplied engines for pumping water on the farm. You can still see these running at threshing demonstrations and other museum venues. These engines burned wood or coal and developed about 1/2 hp. The wood fire provided a hot sink temp of 500 deg F or so, and heat was rejected to the ambient air. A typically 1/2 hp machine is about the size of a 5-drawer file cabinet.

Sorry for the long dissertation. Guess I got on a roll.
Its a long answer for why you don't see any engines running between low temperature differences.
Its tough to compete with the power companies - they have 1000 deg F or more between their hot sink and cold sink.
Keep at it.

Terry S.
 
When we were in Alaka we stopped by Chena Hot Springs and looked around. As I work at a power plant, I was very interested in there geothermal generator. It used the same design concept as you are thinking about except they use a turbine. Here is a link that will give you more input. http://www.chenahotsprings.com/geothermal-power/

They have a hot spring, around 165 degrees F to do the heating, froen to do the work and normal ground water to do the cooling.

I think you may like what you see.

Turbo
 
When we were in Alaka we stopped by Chena Hot Springs and looked around. As I work at a power plant, I was very interested in there geothermal generator. It used the same design concept as you are thinking about except they use a turbine. Here is a link that will give you more input. http://www.chenahotsprings.com/geothermal-power/They have a hot spring, around 165 degrees F to do the heating, froen to do the work and normal ground water to do the cooling.I think you may like what you see.Turbo
Well there you have it!One thing that might prove to be a hitch though,from the page:
Cooling Water enters from our cooling water well which is located 3000ft distant and 33ft higher elevation than the power plant. Cold water (40єF-45єF) is siphoned out of this well and supplied to the power plant condenser The cooling water we are using to supply the power plant condensers is also extremely critical. In fact, without the good cold water resource we have available the power generation project might not be viable for our low geothermal temperatures.
If you're not in Alaska, with naturally occurring refrigerated water, then you're looking at active cooling, or a much lower temperature differential, and hence a much less efficient system.
The technology developed by UTC can operate off any heat source, with a minimum of 100°F temperature differential between the heat source and sink.
 
Has anyone looked into a magnet motor. Mr Johnson (the inventor) had one he sold for cars, but died suddenly and no one is allowed to sell them, but you can build one from plans which are for sell, but don't try to sell the motor. There are many sizes that people built that are on the net and with the new magnets last around 300 years (estimate) since no one knows. The one Johnson built ran for 20 years as of 1980 when I lost track and maybe is still running. The Government gave him a patent after a legal battle. Make up your own mind after you look into it.
Paul
 
Has anyone looked into a magnet motor. Mr Johnson (the inventor) had one he sold for cars, but died suddenly and no one is allowed to sell them, but you can build one from plans which are for sell, but don't try to sell the motor. There are many sizes that people built that are on the net and with the new magnets last around 300 years (estimate) since no one knows. The one Johnson built ran for 20 years as of 1980 when I lost track and maybe is still running. The Government gave him a patent after a legal battle. Make up your own mind after you look into it.Paul
Yes, do, but in between looking into it and making up your mind, study up on physics. It's overunity AKA perpetual motion AKA physically impossible.
 
Has anyone looked into a magnet motor. Mr Johnson (the inventor) had one he sold for cars, but died suddenly and no one is allowed to sell them, but you can build one from plans which are for sell, but don't try to sell the motor. There are many sizes that people built that are on the net and with the new magnets last around 300 years (estimate) since no one knows. The one Johnson built ran for 20 years as of 1980 when I lost track and maybe is still running. The Government gave him a patent after a legal battle. Make up your own mind after you look into it.
Paul

Scam, swindle, snake oil, swizz, are just some of the words beginning with 'S' that describe plans for a Johnson Magnet Motor.
There are others, but they aren't suitable for a polite and friendly site like this one.

Until you get into the world of sub-atomic particles there's no such thing as a free lunch! :nono:

Also note that a working model isn't required for a patent as the patent, as the patent is on the idea or intellectual property.

M
 
Did anyone look at the youtube videos of the working models? Repelling magnets will move by them self without other help. The magnet motor is not a perpetual motion device since the magnets will give up at some point hence the law suit to get his patent.
Paul
 
Back
Top