1 ton arbor press for initial tool molding

[leonardo-albertovich]

Hi, I'm currently trying to make woodworking tools as a way to get some "niche" tools I wouldn't like to spend a lot of money on as well as to get some practice in heat treatment and manual metal working.

In the end I'd like to get a used small lathe and later on a similar mill but that's besides the point in this case.

What I'm currently doing (mostly for practice) is verifying if the different types of steel I have (some mystery, some hss, some hcs) tolerate a "proper" heat treatment and then performing a "manual subtractive process" (a.k.a I only have files) to achieve the geometries I want before profiling, heat treating and sharpening.

One of the first things I made as a test was a specific gouge I needed out of a spade bit (yes, I know...) but the problem I knew I would find (and found) was that since I'm not forging it and I don't have any type of forms I ended up crudely forming the blade with my locking pliers and then "patching" the profile with files which was not ideal.

With this in mind I thought that I could get an arbor press, manually create a set of forms (is that the right term?) and then combine them with my "mapp" torch to get the initial profile, anneal and continue with my subtractive process.

What I'd like to get out of this is to be stamp some proper curves but also minimally flatten rod steel or cut files with a decent stable pattern (for fun).

I'd really appreciate any input.

 

[piper184]

Just a suggestion, but watch some videos about basic blacksmithing. You probably won't find someone doing exactly what you want, but after watching different techniques you can start to get ideas about how to use common things like pipe or square bar to use as a former to make the shapes you want.
search u-tube for Black Bear Forge or Basic blacksmithing
You will be surprised what can be done with a hammer and a good propane torch.

 

[whitmore]

In the case of a gouge, perhaps an old circular saw blade is better steel than a spade... the way to
work ferrous metals for that is to hammer hot metal against forming dies; making a screwdriver
from a steel rod is a good exercise, but you will definitely want an anvil (perhaps just a railway segment)
and a propane or charcoal heat source. An arbor press might be good for gentle bends,
but gentle isn't the most productive approach to steelwork.

Making a forming die will take much subtractive work... starting with a hunk of scrap, and
ending with an anvil, or a die, is perhaps more enjoyable with an angle grinder than with files.

 

[OCJohn]

I've got a 1-ton arbor press I mostly use for crushing beer cans. I suppose you 'could' use it for very light blacksmithing, but I think you'll quickly wish you had something bigger like a 2-5 ton. Also, for your use case (repetitive pressing strokes) I don't think I would want a ratcheting type press, which are more common in the 3-5 ton range.

@piper184's youtube suggestion is a good one. I watch a lot of blacksmiths there and don't recall ever seeing one use an arbor press. Their well-aimed BFHs, power hammers and BIG fly presses make red hot steel look more like clay than it really is.

The dream...

The reality...

 

[leonardo-albertovich]

@piper184 I have done some proper backsmithing in the past, however, at the moment I'm limited to an apartment where I can't bang my pieces for many reasons (not only the noise)

@whitmore I agree with you in terms of material, however, in this case what I'm looking for is to experiment with what I have at my disposal and what's easy to get in the hardware store (mostly for fun) and since I'm confined to an apartment I don't have a circular or table saw so I don't have any worn out blades.

@OCJohn I assumed I would be able to do this minimal forming with an arbor press because a long time ago when I lived in a place where I could do some proper blacksmithing I used anvil tooling but more importantly I saw the same concept applied in power hammers.

I think you might be right about using a beefier press because I saw someone struggle to cold form a coin in a 1 ton press (to the point where they bent the handle).

Thanks a lot for the ideas folks.

 

[durableoreo]

[unfriendly comment deleted]

 

[leonardo-albertovich]

Ugh, I don't mean to start any drama but you made a few assumptions which are not exactly accurate so I'll give you some answers to set the record straight :

1. I'm not a kid, I'm almost 40 so you don't need to worry about me wasting my precious time
2. I have a career and I'd dare to say I'm quite qualified actually (you can easily find my github and linkedin profiles if it makes you happy)
3. I don't have experience with coins nor do I have experience with arbor presses but I have forged knives which is why I thought (and honestly still think) that what I intend to do is feasible (albeit not optimal)
4. "getting off the internet" is a terrible idea, on the contrary, "the internet" is quite profitable and if I was asked by a kid I'd encourage them to "get on the internet", learn some valuable skills and grow (but what do I know...)
5. Maybe I wasn't clear enough but I'm not "trapped in an apartment" because I can't afford to live somwhere else nor am I limited in my tool set because I can't afford to purchase "real machines". On the contrary, I choose this setup at the moment because it's what's convenient for my family.

I hope that my answers satisfy you and please know that I don't mean to disrespect you while clarifying the situation, I just would've really appreciated a less preachy, more constructive tone with less assumptions of what's right and what's wrong.

 

[francist]

With this in mind I thought that I could get an arbor press, manually create a set of forms (is that the right term?) and then combine them with my "mapp" torch to get the initial profile, anneal and continue with my subtractive process.

What I'd like to get out of this is to be stamp some proper curves but also minimally flatten rod steel or cut files with a decent stable pattern (for fun).

I'd really appreciate any input.

I say go for it. This sounds like one of those things that may not be the traditional way to accomplish something nor may it be an optimal way to accomplish something, but it may still end up producing a viable result for what you want out of the process.

Around here a 1-ton arbor press is not crazy expensive -- maybe a hundred dollars or so -- so you're not selling the farm to buy one. And heck, even if it doesn't do exactly what you want for this round it probably will be useful for other aspects of the endeavour -- pressing on ferrules, pressing rivets to hold handle scales on, etc. And you can't really get a much quieter tool!

As for the hotwork capabilities, the major drawbacks I see are the lack of real power that comes from an impact (either hand hammer, flypress, or machine hammer) and the speed at which you need to get the hot metal positioned and formed. An arbor press is on the slow side, but again, if you're set up for a certain part it may work fine. The nice thing about arbor presses is they're fairly controllable so you can see if you're going the right way as you're doing it. Sometimes that doesn't always happen when striking on the anvil!

I do lots of different things and get lots of different things done but not always by the usual means or the way "everyone else does it". That doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it my way.

Good luck with it, and let us know how it works. I've been thinking about the same thing on and off actually, just haven't got around to making an attempt yet.

 

[brino]

@durableoreo

Kinda harsh response from "The Friendly Machinists Forum", No?
Sure some more info would have been nice off the top, but you seem to make a lots of assumptions.
Perhaps something hit a sore spot for you.......

@leonardo-albertovich

First, Welcome to the group!

Next, please don't be discouraged by "the most internet post" that I have seen in a while above.
Most folks here are friendly and supportive.

I'm not a kid

That's proven by your mature and thoughtful response!

If you haven't seen it, check out the book "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" by Alexander Weygers.
He makes a bunch of wood-carving tools from various scrap materials.

Depending on the size of the tools your making, also check out some of the jewellery supply places for "doming blocks", "dapping blocks", etc.





Brian

 

[OCJohn]

I do have some advice for you, although you probably won't like it.

Get off the internet and make some money.

Do as I say, something something…