VFD Questions

homebrewed

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A recent thread concerning "DRO drift" due to VFD noise got me wondering about VFD's in general. A quick visit to Wikipedia revealed they're not quite as straightforward as I had thought. There are six different circuit topologies (not counting hybrids), with the most common being the so-called VSI -- "voltage-source inverter", with PWM outputs. Variations in that category include open loop and closed-loop speed control. An "interesting" potential issue with VFDs is mentioned -- high currents flowing through the motor bearings due to the PWM high frequency drive leaking into the hardware due to capacitive coupling. This can lead to premature bearing failure. The article also mentioned separating VFD drive cables from other electronics by at least 50cm (that's over 19 inches).

So the questions:

1. I'm wondering what sort of VFD people are installing on their machines. Open loop control or closed loop?
2. Are the motors also replaced with ones that are designed for use with a VFD? Synchronous? Induction?
3. Has anyone experienced bearing failure in their motor(s) after upgrading with a VFD?
4. How troublesome has electrical noise been after the upgrade?

Thanks!
 
Creating magnetic fields using electricity can cause bearing failure in motors, do not ever use it.
Pulse Width Modulation has been known to cause magnetic field effects in machinery, this should be avoided if at all possible (-:
 
Closed loop systems generally require some sort of sensor on the motors. I doubt many people adding them to existing machines would do that. I have a few, one is a new motor that is inverter rated. The other two are OEM Bridgeport motors for the spindle and power feed.

I have DROs and notice no drift on them with or without the VFDs running. In my case, they are on independent circuits so there is some noise reduction there, but I have never noticed any symptoms of RFI.

My VFDs are el-cheapo Chinese specials. If any were going to cause interference, I would expect mine to.

For home use, I can't imagine there being enough current for capacitive coupling to matter. Perhaps large industrial units would. If you are concerned about it, use shielded power wires between the VFD and motor.
 
So the questions:

1. I'm wondering what sort of VFD people are installing on their machines. Open loop control or closed loop?

Today the Sensorless Vector VFDs are the best for most machine tool applications, I have them on 2 machines. There is no need for a closed loop system for all but the most demanding industrial applications. If very tight speed control is required then it's time to go with a servo system, not needed for your machine tool spindle unless you need indexing capability.

2. Are the motors also replaced with ones that are designed for use with a VFD? Synchronous? Induction?

Most standard 3 phase motors will work fine with the 230V class VFDs. Where you get into problems is with the older 460V motors because of the higher operating voltages.

3. Has anyone experienced bearing failure in their motor(s) after upgrading with a VFD?

I have not, and have never heard if it happening in the last 30 years of using VFDs. Having said that, this is a consideration in high HP systems. But I am talking about 100 to 1000 + HP drives in heavy industrial applications. In anything we find in our shops, it is not really a consideration.

4. How troublesome has electrical noise been after the upgrade?

Never have had a problem, but I do take care to keep control cable and power cable separated, sometimes just a few inches or sometimes more depending on the application. If it is really a problem, shielded power cable is readily available, and adding filters is also a possibility. I have never had a problem on any machine tools.
 
For what its worth I have a VFD and DRO on my mill and have not had any problems with drift or interference. My VFD isn't even in an enclosure, just "temporarily" mounted to a piece of plywood on the wall behind the mill.
 
Good info so far -- thanks!
 
Per what Jim has outlined,sensorless vector mode can hold very tight speed tolerances, usually better than 0.1%. Encoders are used more for positional control, so to prevent creeping at a stop or positioning for threading. Not all VFDs use sensorless vector, so something to check when purchasing a VFD if that is an important criteria.

Problems arising with motor bearings are typically at higher voltages, bigger motors and long motor cables. I have not seen any problems reported with smaller machines that do not run continuously. Some of the VFD motors do come with a carbon brush on the shaft. In general not a problem. I would assume that there may be issues in other applications of VFDs where the motors are running for long periods, such as pool pumps, refrigerator motors, newer AC compressors, etc. There are a number of ways to address this, so the motors/bearings and electronics probably address this issue in purposely built systems that need to last for many years. There are fancy "expensive" motor cable filters, also less expensive is to use a single ferrite donut and wrap each motor wire around the donut 3-4X at 120 degree spacing. This is similar to input noise filters (not an AC Reactor or DC bus chokes which also decrease the distortion electrical noise). I typically use DC bus reactors on 3 phase input VFDs used with single phase more for prolongation of the capacitors/components life.

There are inverter/vector motors, typically the main improvement is with regard to the motor wiring insulation, so it can withstand much higher and repeat voltage spikes seen with PWM VFDs. Typically they use standard bearings, a few of the WEG VFD motors I have used do have a shaft ground brush. The other features of these types of motors is that they are designed to run over a much wider RPM and maintain their performance characteristics, so they will often be rated at full Hp up to their maximum RPM (often 2X their base speed) and also constant torque below their base speed down to basically 0 RPM. In most cases, one is operating their motors in a much narrower speed range so again a non-issue. Insulattion break down in older motors can be an issue, but many non-VFD motors are dual voltage and you are running them on the lower voltage (230 VAC) so rarely is there a problem with motor insulation breakdown expect with older motors. Most VFDs have specific motor parameters that can be adjusted for different types of motors.

As far as RFI/EMI, I have had issues with , minor speed variation/noise in cables, radio interference, and reports of erratic VFD signaling behavior when individuals do not follow VFD wiring guidelines, such as running control cables near motor cables. Typically (like 99% of the time) it is not an issue. I have had some electrical; noise issues in ancillary equipment because of VFDs, so I tend to more closely follow the VFD manufactures guidance's in their manual. Primarily use of shielded cable, layout of cables/location and grounding recommendations. The attached information from Automation Direct is a great primer on techniques for installing VFDs, worth reviewing. They have also added bulk shielded cable sales by the foot so a good source of wire/cable and also components. Great product lines for this type of work, great service and reasonable pricing. Lots of helpful information.

As far as EMI/RFI filters, you need to look at the specs and the application. Typically you would want the filter just before the power input to the VFD, so it isolates some of the electrical noise. It can be a bit more complex if you get into it, but a the hobbyist level, probably not an issue. The exception may be CNC systems, where noise contamination can be a more significant issue. Mainstream DRO's I have not heard of an issue with electrical interference, but they are rigorously tested and they probably have electrical noise filtering to minimize the interference. Interference is an issue with some of the Igaging scales adapted to machine DRO's.
 

Attachments

  • Automation Direct - Applied EMI and RFI Techniques.pdf
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Thanks for a very informative discussion Mark. One question to clarify the purpose of the choke your were describing when you said to wind the individual motor wires through a donut core (aka toroid). Were you describing a common mode choke?
 
There are DC buss chokes which are different then RFI chokes, the toroid type on the VFD motor cable is a common mode type of choke. I typically do not use them because the VFD cable wires are stiff and you should wind several turns around the ferrite toroid in the same direction staggered or use multiple rings . I do use the clamp on toroids on the motor cable occasionally, not really been and common issue. I do recall a few people who had radio, TV and also RF transmitter devices being messed up when the VFD was running. In those cases I would add an input and output filter as well as proper shielding of cables. Also been report of erratic VFD behavior when people ran the the input control wires in the same conduit as the motor wires.
 
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