Turning non-free-machining steel

rwdenney

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So, I had a project and used a chunk of 2-3/4" hydraulic cylinder made from 1045 medium-carbon steel. This material is not free-machining like resulpherated steels such as 12L14, but it's strong and relatively cheaply available as scrap. And it can be hardened if that is important.

I turned it in a South Bend 14-1/2" lathe. My first cuts were at 600 RPM (434 SFM), which is the next-to-fastest speed on the lathe. (And my lathe operates somewhat faster than in factory trim--a 1410 RPM motor was replaced with a 1780 RPM motor when the original purchaser sold it back in the deeps of time. The pulley was not changed, however, so the spindle speed benefitted from the faster motor speed.)

I was using a CNMG 432 insert designed for turning steel with a chip-breaker design. I was turning with a .050 to .100 depth of cut and a .005 feed rate. I used Tap-Magic cutting oil. The chips came off the steel blue-hot, and straight as an arrow, quickly wrapping around everything and becoming a strong, sharp, and hot birds nest. This is the issue using a negative-rake tool like a CNMG with a slower and less powerful machine. With a heavier feed rate and maybe a higher speed, perhaps the tool would have broken the chips. I've read that a carbide insert needs to be "slammed" into material like 1045 to provide good chip management. My lathe lacks the power to pull that off.

I switched to a CCMT 431 insert, which is similar (including the chip-breaker design) but has a positive rake. That insert also would not break chips, but did curl the chips into tight worms about an eighth in diameter. Again, the chips came off the cut blue-hot. The curled worms were a big improvement over the birds nest, but they still went everywhere. The CCMT insert also was not as picky about surface speed, and made the same chips at 450 RPM.

This was my first experience with steel that doesn't machine well, and I explored the matter. Maybe this post will save someone the search. The trick that I learned was "peck-feeding". Just as we break chips in when drilling by pecking at the hole using the quill, we can do the same with the power feed on the lathe. All I had to do was momentarily release the apron clutch every few seconds. The slight pause in the feed would break the chip. I ended up with a chip tray full of 4-inch tightly curled worms, which was safe and manageable.

There are plenty of other options I might have tried, but that one worked in this situation.

Finished part:
IMG_0025-dsqz.JPG


During turning--but the pic was not when the machine was actually feeding, but rather was posed for the picture before engaging the power feed clutch. For this picture, the depth of cut was 0.100 (actual, not diameter), feed rate was .0048, tool was CCMT 431 insert with coating and chip-breaker for cutting steel:
IMG_0024-dsqz.JPG


Rick "still on the steep part of the learning curve" Denney
 
Your feed rate is way too low to break chips. Carbide vendors have charts for reccomended feeds for the various insert designs. Also, the larger the tool nose radius the higher the feed you need to breaak chips.
 
Thanks for this. You do save me some fruitless experimenting.

Generally, my (smaller) South Bend should not be expected to venture into this territory, but it has "modifications". Much more power in the shameless motor modification, and I plan a rigid toolpost mount without the compound, as covered by Stefan Gotteswinter, Robin Renzetti, and others. I have the cast iron chunk arrived.

The tool edge of the carbide inserts has a radius, because it needs to be tough, and not too sharp because of brittleness. If you can get it going deep enough and fast enough that the plastic metal crashes the chip breaker, you will get those great finishes. Stefan chooses to "modify" his used inserts, to make them sharp. He gets the good finish by being careful not to risk the brittle breakage. Of course, this is slow compared to the industrial production the inserts were designed for.
 
Your feed rate is way too low to break chips. Carbide vendors have charts for reccomended feeds for the various insert designs. Also, the larger the tool nose radius the higher the feed you need to breaak chips.
I hear what you are saying, but I sure have spent a lot of time in manufacturer literature trying to find that. Example, I bought a box of Mitsubishi CNMG 432 VP10RT inserts. Mitsubishi says nothing about feed rate, though they do recommend a speed of 390 SFM for the VP10RT coating. They also provide four application examples, and the biggest feed of the four is .010 ipr.

85B481E3-6AA1-43CE-90AE-13C8D4D4D6F4.png

Notice the range of speeds.

None of these are 1045, of course.

At 600 RPM, .005 feed sure doesn’t seem that slow, especially turning up to a shoulder. My reactions are slow but I’m a musician with good timing, and can usually get the feed stopped within a couple of thousandths, but I would be nervous running much faster up against that shoulder. The guys on YouTube don’t seem to be going much faster. Adam Booth said he rarely exceeds 400-odd RPM on his Victor and his Monarch, and he routinely uses CNMG 432 inserts in 3/4” holders like mine. Yes, I know that Monarch has 2-1/2 times the power of my South Bend, but I pay attention to his settings, and I don’t see feeds substantially higher than what I’m using. Unless he’s speeding up the footage, that is :)

So, what am I missing?

Rick “not so lucky in finding usable s&f advice for manual machining” Denney
 
I was able to break chips on medium carbon steel with a TNMG 332 insert, but just barely, at the highest RPM on my South Bend. There are a large variety of chip breakers, and there may be differences. Also, I had to keep the depth of cut low to avoid stalling the lathe. 0.1" depth of cut is for HSS if you have limited power.
 
This is why I switched to HSS only... My lathe is capable of only a 592 RPM (actually 2x that if I run the motor at 60 hz! with the VFD), so I immediately get caught going to slow. Mixed with my amazing ability to burn cutters (and HSS' ability to re-grind!), HSS has saved me a lot of heatache :D
 
In terms of being plastic at the cut, even what I was doing was throwing chips yellow-hot and watching them cool to blue, which seems to me a surrogate for cutting force. But I may not be getting deeper than the cutting radius on the edge of the coated inserts.

I went back and watched a dozen or so Abom videos of just random lathe work. I don’t see him running high speeds, even when considering the diameter of the workpiece.

But I do see feed rates of .020.

When I get a chance (maybe Sunday),I’m going to chuck up some 1045 and try an.020 feed rate, starting small with depth of cut and working up. I tried this once before and stalled the lathe but that was before I rewired the motor correctly.

I’ll keep the speed at about 300-500 SFM, which for this 3” stock will mean trying both 640 and 400 RPM. I’ll probably start with 400 just to keep the carriage from driving through the back of the shop before I can get my foot on the brake.

Rick “recognizing that manufacturers are making recommendations for production environments that value speed and have CNC” Denney
 
When feeding to a shoulder, I set up a 1 inch travel dial indicator. Have it make 1 or two revolutions and set 0 for my finished location.
When the needle gets with in .010 or so, I cut the clutch and finish the cut by hand.
 
The screenshots also show flood cooling. If you aren't running coolant, you will get a lot of heat. Cutting oil helps, but it can't get anywhere near the thermal capacity of a flood coolant setup.

I expect that might factor in to the ability of the chip breaker to work as designed as well. Hot metal will be more flexible, and less likely to snap off. This is a guess, so don't take too much from it. :)

I tend to rough stringy stuff with the peck method, usually hand feeding just for added control of chip size. Finish passes will usually break off if I hold a brush or similar up near the chip. So I can power feed while up close safely.
 
Rick, you're clouding up your vision by comparing feeds for inconel and sintered metal to your 1045 steel work piece. Apples and oranges, and the advertised rates are a balls-out maximum for ultimate production.

.100 DOC with .005 feed at speeds approaching 500 SFM is a pretty manly cut, and considering the material, you did obtain a decent finish. In fact, that's pretty darn clean for mild steel. But I don't think pushing carbide to the max on a manual mill is a good plan. Next time you are roughing a part, experiment with slower and lower feeds/speeds and see where the sweet spot is. Carbide likes to be near the max, but not every single time on every operation. Save the production charts for shops that lose money by slowing down; we're not time-limited in the home shop. Let the machine tell you what the rates should be, not the chart.
 
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