Shaper Tool Holder Question

[olcopper]

Probably a dumb question, but is a lathe tool holder, (old style such as used with acorn type tool post)
the same as a shaper tool holder, or can they be used for a shaper.
I recently came across some old tool posts and tool holders----these are big holders and tool posts---
the gentleman sold his large lathe and has no further use for them.
olcopper

 

[francist]

They can be used, yes, but the less common ones for carbide tooling are better. They present the cutter parallel with the bottom of the holder rather than at the back rake angle on the normally-found holders. The ones made for carbide tooling have a "T" prefix on them, as in T-1-R, which would indicate a carbide holder, #1 size, right hand.

The drawback with the back-rake tool holders is that it places the cutting edge further out in front of the fulcrum point, making a jam more likely should the cutter take a big bite. The closer the edge is to the fulcrum at the base the better, which is why dedicated shaper holders often look like they're mounted backwards. That being said, I have shaper documentation here from reliable sources of the day that do show the angled holders in use, but they do concede the ones with zero rake are preferred. I have used the angled ones without issue, just be aware.

-frank

 

[francist]

 

[f350ca]

As Francist said, I've used the angled ones, saves grinding rake on the top of the cutter. I let the small ones I had go with the Logan. Would like to find a couple of 5/8 wide holders for the current shaper.

Greg

 

[olcopper]

As Francist said, I've used the angled ones, saves grinding rake on the top of the cutter. I let the small ones I had go with the Logan. Would like to find a couple of 5/8 wide holders for the current shaper.

Greg

They can be used, yes, but the less common ones for carbide tooling are better. They present the cutter parallel with the bottom of the holder rather than at the back rake angle on the normally-found holders. The ones made for carbide tooling have a "T" prefix on them, as in T-1-R, which would indicate a carbide holder, #1 size, right hand.

The drawback with the back-rake tool holders is that it places the cutting edge further out in front of the fulcrum point, making a jam more likely should the cutter take a big bite. The closer the edge is to the fulcrum at the base the better, which is why dedicated shaper holders often look like they're mounted backwards. That being said, I have shaper documentation here from reliable sources of the day that do show the angled holders in use, but they do concede the ones with zero rake are preferred. I have used the angled ones without issue, just be aware.

-frank

Frank,
Thank you for the explanation and the drawings , they cleared up a lot of questions for me.
olcopper

 

[benmychree]

I worked with a guy years ago who swore by using the Armstrong angled type tool holders on shapers and planers, but he turned them backwards; this put the cutting edge closer to the fulcrum point, but required the tool bit to be nearly ground in half, even to achieve a zero back rake; he had the shop make a special holder for him to hold 1" square tool bits in this manner (this was a 6ft X 6ft X 15 ft planer) he was on swing shift I was on days; I'd use the Williams swivel type planer tool holder, he'd come in for his shift and put his holder on, I'd come in take his off, put mine on -----
The problem with the angled type lathe tool holders used on shapers and planers is that they have so much back rake that it is necessary to grind the top of the tool off quite a bit to reduce the back rake to a minimum, or zero back rake. excessive back rake can encourage the tool to hog into the work. Round nose roughing tools of the F.W. Taylor shape generally have a bit of negative rake, especially after repeated sharpening and still work fine. On shapers and planers, the tools require much less clearance than turning tools, since they do not feed in the cut; front and side rake only need about two degrees clearance, side rake ten or fifteen degrees.
Rest in peace, Walter White, and your peculiar tool holder and cutting tools.

 

[amuller]

It's worth looking at an Armstrong catalog for the dedicated shaper pattern tool holders.

 

[C-Bag]

I got lucky and my Atlas 7b came with the Armstrong adjustable holder on it. When you really start delving into all the things a shaper can do with the right bit and holder, that's when you really come to appreciate it. Instead of having all these different holders, left hand, right hand etc, this one holder does it all. The only thing you have to do is grind your bits left or right, pointed, round or whatever. These can be hard to find and pricey when you do, but you only need one holder so it can be worth it. The only thing it can't do is hold large bits.

 

[amuller]

My Shap-rite came with one of those, a #39. If I could find the extended one for cutting internal keys and splines, a #46, I'd be well pleased. Does anybody know when Armstrong stopped making these things?

 

[C-Bag]

I don't think they have made them for decades. But technically I think the #39 can be turned into one by unbolting the hold down nut, pulling that nut/hold own, cutter bit, and making the shaft extension out of drill rod and mounting it in place of the hold down. If you look up Stefan Gottswinter on YouTube and his Gack shaper there is a buch of great things he's made for his. Like he made a reverse clapper box( so it cuts on the return stroke) and Keyway cutters that you just pull the clapper box off and put this in its place. This gives you more room, is more ridged and you don't have immobilize the clapper like you would do if you mounted a cutter in the clapper box. This is the route I would go after watching his vids. YMMV.