Need help with my B&S Model 2

[mike58]

I need your help identifying what I have. It's an old B&S model 2 with a Pope P32 spindle assembly. Before that, this is my 1st post as a newbie to the forum. Nelson promotes communicating here so without rambling too much I'll give this short history of my life in the machining world. I was introduced to machining in the 80's after a 2yr college degree at Alfred State in New York majoring in Product & Machine Design. I worked for Eastman Kodak in Tool Engineering designing small sheet metal components for the instant camera line (I know this dates me I'll be 60 soon). After a year of sitting behind a drafting board (no computers back then) I'd had enough. I was hands on growing up working on motorcycles & cars. Sitting behind a desk 40hrs a week was not for me. A neighbor ran a precision machining dept. at a local company. My Dad told him my I was mechanically inclined & needed a job. So he hired me & this is where it all began. I apprenticed at Alliance Tool & Die in Rochester, NY in the Jig Bore Dept. I trained on Moore No.1 Jig Bore Mills then on to large Swiss SIP Hydroptic Jig Bore Mills. The dept. was made up of about 10 machinists most were well seasoned. I trained with an older German fellow who taught me a great deal. After I completed my 4yr apprenticeship I moved on to the horizontal machining dept. running a DeVlieg 48" mill. After hours I'd stay on my own time learn to run Bridgeport Mills & Engine Lathes with help from guys in the shop. It was a great environment to learn I really enjoyed working there. A couple years later Alliance was bought out by Jasco Corp. & I was eventually laid off with others in a 'restructuring plan'. Older equipment was being auctioned off at the time. I decided to start a small contract machining shop. I was still living at home & my dad let me use his 24'x32' barn to set up shop. From the auction I bought a Bridgeport J-Head added a DRO, a Boyar Shultz 6x12 surface grinder & a LeBlond 19" Servo Shift Engine Lathe. We trailered it all home in 2 trips on a U-Haul car trailer. After my dad & I rigged it all in I realized I needed 3-phase power to run (at the time I didn't know what 3ph was...I learned fast). I ordered an Arco 7-1/2hp Roto Phase & eventually had all the machines under power. It was slow starting the business but I picked up some local clients & ran for a year. I then met my bride of 30yrs, we were married, had a son, & I needed a full time job with benefits. I worked briefly for a couple of small machine shops eventually ending up at a Plastic Injection Molding Company as the lead maintenance technician. I eventually sold the lathe & grinder but kept the mill. I'm still in the plastics business & have a small shop in my garage. A few years ago I bought a 9" South Bend lathe currently disassembled awaiting a rebuild. I found a 16" South Bend lathe on Ebay later on at a price to good to pass up. Its complete & original, just an older machine. Needing to round out my shop I recently found a Brown & Sharpe Model 2 Surface Grinder for cheap.

Here's where I need help. I've read up on the B&S Model 2, 2L, 2LB. The machine I have is the power table & cross machine but is missing some of the drive components. I only need the grinder for tool sharpening & light grinding so lacking power feeds is no problem. It has the Pope 32 spindle drive. I've read this was an option from B&S back in the day but also a later retrofit on many machines. It looks like this grinder was a later retrofit. The machine base does not look like it ever had the lower drive motor running the spindle & power feeds via a flat belt. I assume this machine originally had the flat belt system driven from the spindle. My question is about the spindle lube system. I understand there were two types of spindle bearings, one an oil lubricated sleeve with bowl type oilers, the other sealed greased bearings. This machine has two oil ports on the spindle casting, one in front, one behind the column. The ports each have a pull-out plug just like the many other oiling ports for the table, shafts, etc. The machine has not been run for several years, the spindle rotates freely & feels tight. Should I install oilers in the two spindle ports, assuming this is a sleeve type spindle? Any ideas would be of great help. Attached are some pics of my machine. Thanks for tolerating my ramble above...I've been a machining 'nut' for 40 years, glad to be able to share my passion with all of you! Mike

 

[Richard King 2]

If the spindle is good, then don't mess with it. The Popes I have had apart have a tapered shaft that a tapered ID thrust bearing slides up and expands the inner race that makes the balls take up the clearing in the angular outside race.. There is a ground spacer that regulates the depth of the taper. It is a nightmare to replace and get the right spec's. I used to send them back to Pope and have rebuild them, The spindles I saw were sealed bearings and had special grease in them.

I have not seen one in years, maybe 30. If it isn't broken then leave it alone I would recommend . I would suspect the oil holes you see are from the original bronze sleeve bearings it originally had and weren't used now. If you oil through there now you could will wash out the grease and ruin the spindle. I believe Pope went out of business a few years back, but I bet someone bought the procedures and rebuild them still. I know you can still buy tapered ID bearings but Pope had a system on how to rebuild and set them. I assume they had charts at took into account the temp of the bearings as they warmed up when running. If you can run the spindle for an hour check the temp of the spindle housing and if you can feel heat with your hand and it doesn't burn your hand, then it's good. Rich

 

[Bob Korves]

I need your help identifying what I have. It's an old B&S model 2 with a Pope P32 spindle assembly. Before that, this is my 1st post as a newbie to the forum. Nelson promotes communicating here so without rambling too much I'll give this short history of my life in the machining world. I was introduced to machining in the 80's after a 2yr college degree at Alfred State in New York majoring in Product & Machine Design. I worked for Eastman Kodak in Tool Engineering designing small sheet metal components for the instant camera line (I know this dates me I'll be 60 soon). After a year of sitting behind a drafting board (no computers back then) I'd had enough. I was hands on growing up working on motorcycles & cars. Sitting behind a desk 40hrs a week was not for me. A neighbor ran a precision machining dept. at a local company. My Dad told him my I was mechanically inclined & needed a job. So he hired me & this is where it all began. I apprenticed at Alliance Tool & Die in Rochester, NY in the Jig Bore Dept. I trained on Moore No.1 Jig Bore Mills then on to large Swiss SIP Hydroptic Jig Bore Mills. The dept. was made up of about 10 machinists most were well seasoned. I trained with an older German fellow who taught me a great deal. After I completed my 4yr apprenticeship I moved on to the horizontal machining dept. running a DeVlieg 48" mill. After hours I'd stay on my own time learn to run Bridgeport Mills & Engine Lathes with help from guys in the shop. It was a great environment to learn I really enjoyed working there. A couple years later Alliance was bought out by Jasco Corp. & I was eventually laid off with others in a 'restructuring plan'. Older equipment was being auctioned off at the time. I decided to start a small contract machining shop. I was still living at home & my dad let me use his 24'x32' barn to set up shop. From the auction I bought a Bridgeport J-Head added a DRO, a Boyar Shultz 6x12 surface grinder & a LeBlond 19" Servo Shift Engine Lathe. We trailered it all home in 2 trips on a U-Haul car trailer. After my dad & I rigged it all in I realized I needed 3-phase power to run (at the time I didn't know what 3ph was...I learned fast). I ordered an Arco 7-1/2hp Roto Phase & eventually had all the machines under power. It was slow starting the business but I picked up some local clients & ran for a year. I then met my bride of 30yrs, we were married, had a son, & I needed a full time job with benefits. I worked briefly for a couple of small machine shops eventually ending up at a Plastic Injection Molding Company as the lead maintenance technician. I eventually sold the lathe & grinder but kept the mill. I'm still in the plastics business & have a small shop in my garage. A few years ago I bought a 9" South Bend lathe currently disassembled awaiting a rebuild. I found a 16" South Bend lathe on Ebay later on at a price to good to pass up. Its complete & original, just an older machine. Needing to round out my shop I recently found a Brown & Sharpe Model 2 Surface Grinder for cheap.

Here's where I need help. I've read up on the B&S Model 2, 2L, 2LB. The machine I have is the power table & cross machine but is missing some of the drive components. I only need the grinder for tool sharpening & light grinding so lacking power feeds is no problem. It has the Pope 32 spindle drive. I've read this was an option from B&S back in the day but also a later retrofit on many machines. It looks like this grinder was a later retrofit. The machine base does not look like it ever had the lower drive motor running the spindle & power feeds via a flat belt. I assume this machine originally had the flat belt system driven from the spindle. My question is about the spindle lube system. I understand there were two types of spindle bearings, one an oil lubricated sleeve with bowl type oilers, the other sealed greased bearings. This machine has two oil ports on the spindle casting, one in front, one behind the column. The ports each have a pull-out plug just like the many other oiling ports for the table, shafts, etc. The machine has not been run for several years, the spindle rotates freely & feels tight. Should I install oilers in the two spindle ports, assuming this is a sleeve type spindle? Any ideas would be of great help. Attached are some pics of my machine. Thanks for tolerating my ramble above...I've been a machining 'nut' for 40 years, glad to be able to share my passion with all of you! Mike

I have a 1946 2L. I can help you with model 2 questions, but I know almost nothing about Pope spindles. Mine has the factory plain bearing spindle with the constant level oiler.

 

[Bob Korves]

From the factory, B in the model number meant no power table feeds.

 

[Dabbler]

You have a mighty fine machine there - it will probably outlast you!!!

 

[mike58]

If the spindle is good, then don't mess with it. The Popes I have had apart have a tapered shaft that a tapered ID thrust bearing slides up and expands the inner race that makes the balls take up the clearing in the angular outside race.. There is a ground spacer that regulates the depth of the taper. It is a nightmare to replace and get the right spec's. I used to send them back to Pope and have rebuild them, The spindles I saw were sealed bearings and had special grease in them.

I have not seen one in years, maybe 30. If it isn't broken then leave it alone I would recommend . I would suspect the oil holes you see are from the original bronze sleeve bearings it originally had and weren't used now. If you oil through there now you could will wash out the grease and ruin the spindle. I believe Pope went out of business a few years back, but I bet someone bought the procedures and rebuild them still. I know you can still buy tapered ID bearings but Pope had a system on how to rebuild and set them. I assume they had charts at took into account the temp of the bearings as they warmed up when running. If you can run the spindle for an hour check the temp of the spindle housing and if you can feel heat with your hand and it doesn't burn your hand, then it's good. Rich

Rich I think you're right, that would make sense. Pope did go out of business in Sept. 2016. Haverhill Spindle Service may have aquired Popes expertise. They offer rebuilt spindles for sale, most are Pope, in addition to complete rebuild/balance services for all makes. I sent them some questions I'll let you know what the come back with. Thanks Rich!

 

[mike58]

I have a 1946 2L. I can help you with model 2 questions, but I know almost nothing about Pope spindles. Mine has the factory plain bearing spindle with the constant level oiler.

Where is the serial number located? Mine has 'model 2' cast in at the upper right front of the base. I've looked but can't find it. Thanks Bob

 

[Bob Korves]

On mine the serial number is stamped in the top of the boss the spindle mounts to (yours might be missing with the Pope spindle), and on the right end of the table where the bolt holds down the chuck, and on mine is is also on the left side of the grinder below the table but above the tool rack and access hole. It is stamped into a raised boss in the area where the manufacturer's name and location are cast into the base. Mine is one of the last ones B&S made, in 1946, s/n 17047. I think 1947 was the last year the model 2 grinder was made.

 

[mike58]

Just a follow-up regarding the Pope Spindles. Pope is out of business however the former repair team at Pope established Haverhill Spindle Service LLC. when Pope closed. They can be reached at 978-521-5999 Mark Cyr.