Manual or CNC

[jonathan01]

Is it possible to start out on a CNC lathe, without learning manual first. Right now I am planning on maybe buying a cheap 12x36 chinese or twain lathe, than get some business built up, than get a cnc lathe and mill. I am reading this right now http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/key-cnc-concept-1the-fundamentals-of-cnc , and it seems like i could pick it up pretty easy. As I know AutoCad, and i am good at math. What kind of wear is there to look for in a used CNC lathe? From what i have read so far it seems like by using MDI mode it is basicly a manual lathe. Right now i dont have alot of money, so I am looking at about $5,000 for a lathe and the tooling. I know that basicly limits me to a chinese manual lathe to start with. But, in a few months i may have $15,000 for a lathe, but I am not sure that I will get that extra 10k for the lathe or not.

I can spend $5,000 for a lathe without worrying about if I can get jobs to pay for it or not, i want a lathe for a hobby anyway. To spend anymore, I need to know I will have to have the work to pay for it. So, I am thinking even if I have the extra money, it would be best to get the cheap chinese or maybe spend a little more for a taiwan, to get some experince and know i can get the work.

Does anyone know if they have alot of lathe and mill work in farming and logging areas. I have land that i am building a nice size metal building anyway there. They have a good size city about 20 minutes from my land, but all around me they have tons of cows, hay, logging, etc. I also have a house in the New Orleans area with a garage has enough space for 1 lathe and 1 mill. The only thing with both places, is they only have single phase 220v, i could get a rotary phase conveter to run 220v 3 phase, but a 440v motor i can't run it as far as i know. On my piece of land they only have a single phase line running down the highway i am on, but the subsation is 1.5 to 2 miles down the highway. Does anyone know what kind of costs it would be to have three phase ran from subsation to my land.

orry for the long post. I am looking to start a small machine shop, not planning on 40 hours every week, or at leat working on my own hours. I would like to be able to work my own hours. When I want to take a day off during the week or weekend I want to take off. I don't want the machine shop to be be my only income, but extra income on top off growing and selling hay that I plan to do too. I hope I am not asking to many questions, just trying to learn as much as i can. I am able to reasreach some of my questions, but somethings i just cant seem to find.

Thanks everone that helped me so far, and everone that will help me in the future.

 

[Tony Wells]

There is a lot to discuss in your post. Below are only my opinions after working many years in the industry.

First, manual vs. CNC. Short answer is yes, you definitely can learn CNC without learning manual first. Whether that is a good idea or not is another question. Modern CNC machines can be had with "Conversational" controls....and no, that doesn't mean you just have a heart-to-heart with your machine and get good parts. It means that you can program right on the machine, with more or less plain english and pictures, often (with enough experience and nerve) while running another program. This approach has found favor in some industries, and not so much in others.

MDI is not exactly the same as manual machining. It's a little more involved than that unless you are just doing straight turns, bores, and faces. Not that you couldn't enter an entire 500 line program, but you wouldn't want to.

On the financial side, you won't buy a modern, good shape CNC with a Conversational control for $15k. If you find one, I would be very suspicious of it's condition and history. It would be a very small lathe, at best. Jumping into a business that you aren't already familiar with makes it more of a gamble. A couple of thoughts: You say you want to break into repair/maintenance in Ag and Logging. I'd say that a manual machine would be better suited than a CNC for repair work. Also, consider that if there is enough work to start a business, there probably already is a shop that you would need to attract business away from. Not easy for a person with little experience and a minimal shop. The size machine required for heavy equipment is larger than a 12 X 36. If you approached a potential customer, but could only offer smaller part services, they would be reluctant to take that work out of a shop they have a relationship with to give to you, when you couldn't service there overall needs. Repair work is also not a part time job. You have to keep materials on hand and be willing to work any and all hours. When those customers are down, it represents a financial hit to them, and they can't afford to be down. Plus, you need milling capacity, and welding......etc..

To do what you are saying, taking off as you want, working when you want.....there's not many machine shops like that, and I'd say no repair shops like that. You would just about need your own product that you develop, or a good customer that places orders far enough in advance to let you schedule your shop. Most machine part customers aren't content to let a small outfit, like a one-man-shop, have their business. Too much trouble for them to keep up with. They want larger shops where they can put many part numbers and not worry about chasing their work down to find out why it's late. Plus the accounting departments don't like small shops either.

OK, on your 3 phase problem. I worked at a shop back in the early eighties that had 4 engine lathes, 2 larger horizontals, to larger verticals, a couple of BP Clones, a 36" shaper, a couple of smaller universal mills.....and a bit more. All on 2 RPC's because we didn't want to pay for the utility company to run 1/4 mile to the shop from the nearest 3 phase service point. So don't rule out converters. Just size them right. In general, CNC's don't like the faux 3 phase, but it can be done. We added a pair of TL-5's and a couple of Webb CNC knee mills (I wish I had one...they were sold off cheap), and still used the converters. As we continued to add equipment, it became clear that the converters were not the correct approach and paid up to have the poles planted and wires strung. Oh, on your 440 machine, just buy a step up transformer of you can't reconnect the machine to 220. Most can be done. Dry transformers are commonly used for this.


OK, I'll let everyone else get in on this too.

BTW, I am a small shop owner, so know the battle you face firsthand.

 

[jonathan01]

Ok, I most likely am going to buy a manual lathe to start with, to gain experience, and so it would be so much of a gamble, and worst come to the worst i will have a good hobby lathe. If I find out that I could get the work than i will buy the CNC lathe, mill, etc.

I wouldn't mind doing the repair work, being that repair work is probally what makes up most of the machine work in my area I would quess. I would like to make new parts off of a drawing or sketch with dimensions though. Pretty much all the land in my area is owned by a few different families. The people there pretty much know everyone for miles, and what every person in the area does for a living. Which most of the people have their or companies. They have 2 or 3 people that do dozer/excavation work, alot of cow farmers, a few chicken farms, 2 that drill water wells, etc. I am going to talk to one of my neighbors this weekend if he knows what the machine work is like in the area. If I had the work I don't mind working as quickly as possible to get the work done. I just don't want to have my doors open 40 hours a week, waiting for someone to walk in a say I need this made. I would like to take in work mostly by phone, email, or word of mouth. If I had a job I would work on it, I just don't want it to be a 7 am to 4 pm M-F type of hours. Being that my shop would be only about 20 feet from my living room I would work any hours of the day or night that I need or want to. If I had the work to pay for more machines, I wouldn't mind getting more machines to get into bigger or different work etc. I would get like a 36"x30feet if i had the work for that size lathe. As far as welding I know enough people that could teach me to weld. I wouldn't mind do some welding, but would like to keep the welding to a min. though. I would probably do some reboring of cylinders for dirt bikes, atvs, outboards, etc also.

I will look more into the step up transformer and rpc's, etc. I know the power company in my area does not charge to put single phase power to your house, but i am sure that would charge to run 3 phase though.

 

[jonathan01]

Hi,

Honestly, if you wish to operate your own business, you won't be coming and going as you wish. Expect long days and long nights. It's just the nature of the game if you wish to make a living.

As for manual vs. CNC. If you want to own a machine shop, either a job shop or manufacturing, CNC is almost a requirement these days. Complex part runs are pretty much the norm these days. And manuals are just too slow to keep up with the demands of 'Just in time manufacturing'. And the simple easy parts don't pay. And while I consider CNC programing to not be difficult anymore, there is still a learning curve. And the cost of entry is high. The machines can be payed for, but you need to keep them busy. And as has been pointed out, used CNC machines can be difficult to buy if you are green as grass.

Manual machine do fit well into the value added shop. Say like a repair shop. Parts tend to be simpler, and the rush to make 1000 identical parts isn't going to rear it's ugly head. But you will spend less time machining and more time fixing things. You can certainly get by with used manual machines in such a situation. Used manuals are somewhat easier to pick good ones and are simpler to fix if needed.

My honest recommendation is to get some schooling and then get a job or two working as a machinist. I know I sound like a a cranky old machinist, (and I probably am), but you need to learn to walk before you can run. There is no reason that some day you can be successful, but that day is probably a bit in the future for you yet.

dalee

Yes, i would like to actually start with a manual lathe and get some experience. I might be able to talk to a few machinists my dad and grandpaw know and see if I can go to their shop after hours and they show me some things. Starting the real shop would probably be at least 2 years away, but would like to start some small jobs to pay for my startup machines, and give me a few jobs under my belt. As far as simple parts go, I already was wondering about that. Say a part takes you just 10 minutes to make, and that happens to be the only part you make that day. How could you charge enough for the part, to go into the shop, turn the machines on, do 10 minutes of work than turn them back off, etc, you should get the point i am trying to make.

 

[ScrapMetal]

Yes, i would like to actually start with a manual lathe and get some experience. I might be able to talk to a few machinists my dad and grandpaw know and see if I can go to their shop after hours and they show me some things. Starting the real shop would probably be at least 2 years away, but would like to start some small jobs to pay for my startup machines, and give me a few jobs under my belt. As far as simple parts go, I already was wondering about that. Say a part takes you just 10 minutes to make, and that happens to be the only part you make that day. How could you charge enough for the part, to go into the shop, turn the machines on, do 10 minutes of work than turn them back off, etc, you should get the point i am trying to make.

While I don't run a machine shop I do own and run a few different businesses. Your simple answer is, you don't charge enough to make it worth while, you "eat" those costs. Business doesn't work that way. You have to charge less of a rate than the next shop would charge (as well as give equal or better results) or you will never see that customer again. He'll tell his friends and they'll never bother to see you in the first place.

Generally, when starting a business, if you want to do it to actually have a chance to make it, I figure you should have all your start up costs covered as well as enough money in the bank to cover about two years of expenses. By expenses I mean your rent, utilities, insurance, as well as personal living expenses. Most start-ups don't look to break even for the first two and a half to three years. This is why most beginning businesses (over 50%) fail in the first two years.

This doesn't even take into consideration that you only want to do it "when you feel like it". That's not a business, that's a hobby and as a rule hobbies don't pay even their own bills. To build up an actual business takes a person's complete attention, 100 hour work weeks, and mounds of set backs that need to be worked through. Now there have been cases where people have started a hobby and become so good at it that others begin to notice their work and then offer to pay for it. If one has enough people doing that they may be able to turn that hobby into a business. That's really the exception rather than the "rule" though.

JMHO

Hope you find it useful,

-Ron

 

[jonathan01]

I fiqured you would have to eat thost costs, just bringing that up. I figure say if I charge $50-$60 an hour, I could charge $7 to $10 plut the material for a 10 minute part. Are these realistic prices. As far as quality I would want my parts to be perfect. I like at create good work, I would like to have my parts less than 0.001" off what the drawing has, if it is possiable. Even though 0.001" probably alot tighter than most parts need to be.

I have the money to get a lathe to use more as my hobby lathe, but use it to start some small jobs to make me enough to repay myself for the small lathe. If I am making enough off of my hobby lathe than i can buy a bigger and better lathe. Than, if I am making enough money, or have enough people looking for mill work, than buy that. I do not plan on taking any loans out for anything for the machine shop. I would come up with the money up front for the small machines, and than take say 70% of the machine shop's gross income and put that back into machines and tools. I don't plan on counting on the machine shop to support my living expenses. The machine shop would start out just for some extra cash. I don't plan on having rent, but the utilities would be shared with my house and my other garage activies. I would probably hook up a meter to the shop, so I know about how much power is going to the shop.

I quess saying that I only want to work when I feel like it was a little too much. I don't mind the hours, but just want to be able change my hours around when I want. For example still work as many hours as required per week, but just not a set time frame every day. Say if i want to take off on a Tuesday, I may work Tuesday night or Saturday instead that week. I wouldn't mind working tons of hours to set it up and get it going. The way I am, if I set a goal for something that I really like to do, I will work on it till it is done, or I just can't stay awake any more. If I have parts that really have to be made for the next day, I would work overtime the night before if I really wanted off the next day. This way the part will be made plus I have off the next day like I wanted. I know there is really no actual "overtime" if you own the shop, it is just longer hours.

Thanks

 

[MG-42]

Wow what a series of questions. The answers that you have gotten so far are great. I too also own a small shop and a hobby shop. In the small shop we do limited production runs of generally less then 500 pieces. In the hobby shop I generally design and build small arms.
I guess the best advice I can give you is the same that I give to my apprentice and that is as follows:
1) It is a business so get some real good advice from a tax account and lawyer.
2) Computers are nice(if I don't beat them to death first) but they are not the end all of everything. The majority of the lathe work in the small arms side in completed on 4 jaws chucks and face plates. This kind of work can not be done on cnc.
3) Even in the cnc side I still need to made fixtures and specalized tool on the manual mills and lathes.
4) Stop taking the easy way all the time. Did you learn anything that way. Machining is a science and an art.
5) Did I mention that it is a business. If something takes you 4 hours to machine then you need to charge for 4 hours of work or fine a way to make it in 15 minutes.
I wish you the best in your need endeavor.

 

[MG-42]

Just as a small side note. Every employe that I ever had thought that starting a business after he left me would be easy. They would charge a little less then me and just be rolling in the dough. Then because they were making so much money they would only have to work a couple of hours a day or when they felt like it. None of them are in business today. In fact most were out of business with in 6 months. The rates I charge is based upon everything. Insurance, energy, rent, repair, TAXES, tooling, non billable items, screws, nuts and bolts. Most of my employes though that the 100.00 to 180.00 per hour that I charged just went into my pocket. The truth is that after overhead about 20.00 went into my pocket. And as for hours, I generally work 14 to 16 hours a day 7 days a week. When the employee went home after 8 hours I was still working on bids, new tooling for the next project, cad and cam work, billing, and a thousand other things a business has to do to survive.

 

[Mid Day Machining]

MG42, How many weekends did you take work home with you just so you could spend a little time with your family?

I have done it several times.

In the early 80's it cost me a marriage because I would take programming or paper work home with me and do it on Sunday. I would get up a 5:00 AM so I could get my work done before my family got up. Then it was off to breakfast, then to the soccer field with the kids.

When you're an owner, it's a 24/7 proposition.

 

[MG-42]

The first marriage lasted 7 years. With the second marriage she is part of the business and it has lasted 32 years. In fact today we spent together going through the cap and set screws and putting them back into the proper drawers.
I find it amazing that employes can not put something back where they got it from.
Small flaw in my other wise perfect character. I like things return to where you got them from, it allows me to find them when I need them.