Knife maker trying to decide between 2 models as a first mill.

[EDivine]

Hello everyone!

I'm completely inexperienced with milling, but I've done a little research and I'm trying to decide between two manual mills I've found that I think meet my needs. Feel free to tell me if I'm way off-base; I don't know what I don't know.

To summarize my answers to the questionnaire, I think I'm looking for a little better than bottom-of-the-barrel benchtop model due to the size of the stock I anticipate working with. The two models I'm looking at are the LittleMachineShop 4190 and the Weiss VM18L-DRO. I would post links, but I don't believe I'm supposed to as a brand new forum member. The info on the Weiss I found on Toolots's website.

Based on my limited understanding, the biggest differences I notice are that the LMS has a 3-axis DRO and a 500W (~2/3HP) motor, and the Weiss has a slightly larger table, 2-axis DRO, plus electronic ruler display spindle feed and 1HP motor. So, my impressions is that the LMS might be a bit easier to work with (3-axis vs 2-axis DRO) and the Weiss has more power. I don't know if the additional power would be helpful for my use, or if the DRO difference really matters.

The main reason I want a mill is to more efficiently produce a crisp fit between blade and handle of a hidden tang chef knife. If you're not familiar with this, hopefully the pictures below give the general idea. It might be too much information for this post, but... I'd like to first make a slot in the handle material (around 1x1x5.5 inches of resin-stabilized wood) a couple of inches deep for the knife tang. I'm guessing that slot would likely be 1/8" or larger based on the end mills I've found so far. Second, I'd epoxy a 1x1x1/8" brass cap over the slot, and make a 3/32" wide slot, 1/8" deep to go through the brass stock. Or maybe it would be better to mill the brass first and then epoxy it to the wood, I don't know...

My steel stock is around .115" thick, so I was thinking of removing around .015-.020" from each side, so the final tang thickness would be a little under 3/32". I use steel from 52100 to high alloy stainless.

Any thoughts or suggestions on which mill would be better for my application or if I'm barking up the wrong tree would be appreciated! I imagine once I get a mill I'll find more uses for it, so aftermarket support/room for growth is relevant, but not the primary consideration.

Cheers and thanks for the help,
Eric

 

[Aaron_W]

Given those two options, I'd probably go with the Little Machine Shop mill even though the Weiss looks like a little more capable machine. LMS is a solid vendor so if you have any issues they will work with you, and they support the machines they sell.

I've never dealt with Toolots, but looks like a cheap importer so I wouldn't expect much from them if you have a problem. Could be wrong, they might be great but I don't know.

DroPros is in Vacaville and carries Weiss machines, you might check with them maybe you could even put your hands on a mill to get a better feel for size.

Although it is a sizable increase in budget I'd at least give some thought to going with a little larger mill, something like the Precision Matthews PM25, Grizzly G0704 or Weiss VM25 (these three are very similar). My experience with small mills is that they are much less rigid than a similar size lathe, so you really don't want to be working at the it just fits end of their capacity.

https://www.precisionmatthews.com/product-category/millingmachines/benchmills/

https://www.grizzly.com/search?q=(category:"Milling+Machines")&fq=(horsepower:"1+HP")

https://www.dropros.com/DRO_PROS_Weiss_Mills.htm


DRO is a nice to have feature but not necessary, lots of people don't have on on their lathe or mill. I'd like one but so far have had competing wants that won out. While there is work that a DRO makes much easier, the work you are describing the DRO would just be a convenience and you can always add one later if the budget is an issue. Also factor in the cost of a decent machining vise, which will be at least a couple hundred dollars. Mills don't usually come with one, but you will want one. You don't need a $600 Kurt, but will regret a $50 Ebay special. In fact expect to spend $500-1000 on top of whichever mill you buy for the initial tooling.


There is no issue with posting links as long as you are clearly not spamming the site, but I'll add a link to the two you mentioned so others can see what you are talking about.

LMS 4190
https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4190&category=1387807683

VM25L @ Toolots
https://www.toolots.com/weiss-varia...hine-with-brushless-motor-c9165-vm25l-07.html


Not a whole lot of small milling machines on the local CL at the moment, but there is a "round column" mill for $800 that might be worth a look. People tend to love or hate these Rong-Fu clones but they do seem to be popular with knife makers and despite their quirks you get a lot of mill for your money. Looks like this one has a power feed on all three axis.
I have no connection to the seller, just had a look to see what might be available used in your area.

$800 with some tooling, even adding a 3 axis DRO from Dropros ($699) would only put you at $1500 and there are cheaper DRO kits out there.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tl...-machinesampson/7408053156.html?lang=en&cc=gb

 

[EDivine]

Thanks for the info Aaron, I'll look into all this. I contacted DROPros yesterday and would have liked to get one from them, but unfortunately they don't have any mills in stock and don't expect any soon given current shipping issues.

For the limited amount of milling on steel I described, it sounds like you think the LMS is sufficient, correct?

 

[matthewsx]

Keep your eyes out here:

PLACE CRAIGSLIST, MARKETPLACE, OFFER UP, ADS HERE

Found a deal on Craigslist, Marketplace, Offer-Up, etc.? Please post it here!

www.hobby-machinist.com

@MrWhoopee comes up with a lot of deals in your area and you will definitely get much more bang for your buck buying used.

How big is your shop? If you're handy you can get a full sized mill used for what some of these mini-mills sell for new, people rarely complain their machine is too big.

With the lead times on new equipment these days you may be forced to look at used if you want something sooner.

John

 

[EDivine]

Thanks, John. I'm in a two car garage, and all the space is already taken up as any open space around me collects tools or scrap. I'm planning on moving soon, and while I wouldn't complain that a full size is too big, my very supportive wife might go wide-eyed, and it's not the battle to pick right now. All reasons I'm leaning toward benchtop over full size for now.

Yeah, I'd prefer new just because I don't know how to evaluate used mills and fear I would spend a ton of time scratching my head and cursing, but it is what it is.

 

[Dabbler]

@EDivine All good reasons to go small - one thing you might not have thought of: we have a lot of members in California, and there could be some willing help to steer you to a great machine...

 

[EDivine]

@EDivine All good reasons to go small - one thing you might not have thought of: we have a lot of members in California, and there could be some willing help to steer you to a great machine...

I appreciate Aaron and John already taking a look around and pointing me to the craigslist section here. I'm glad I joined the forum!

 

[Aaron_W]

Thanks for the info Aaron, I'll look into all this. I contacted DROPros yesterday and would have liked to get one from them, but unfortunately they don't have any mills in stock and don't expect any soon given current shipping issues.

For the limited amount of milling on steel I described, it sounds like you think the LMS is sufficient, correct?

For the specific tasks you described I've got a much smaller Sherline mill, and it would be capable of doing that work so I think the LMS mill would be more than adequate. It is mostly if you go further down the rabbit hole wanting to do some bigger stuff that you might find it lacking.

Another nice thing with small machines is they tend to be easy to sell if you outgrow them because anybody with some cash and a Honda Civic can bring it home.

I'm pretty sure there are a couple members on the site that own the 4190 or 3990 (same mill without the DRO).

 

[jwmelvin]

Is the slot you want to create for a one-piece handle? The picture showed two piece so you’re talking an open pocket on the inside surface of a half-handle?

I agree with the above that making such a pocket and a slot in the guard are fairly small and light projects.

I bought a PM-30mv and now have that and a Bridgeport clone. I paid much less for the larger, used mill, than the small, new one. You would be better off, particularly where you live, waiting to find a used one.

There is some risk but I honestly think you can tell before you buy. If the machine runs smoothly that’s a good sign. Wind the table back and forth between its limits. How much does the handle torque change over that range? Where that handle is loosest, can you shake the table with your hands? Ideally have a dial test indicator (DTI) on a magnetic-base arm and check the spindle runout. You will spend much less if you can find a reasonable machine and there seem to be many in your area.

 

[EDivine]

Is the slot you want to create for a one-piece handle? The picture showed two piece so you’re talking an open pocket on the inside surface of a half-handle?

I agree with the above that making such a pocket and a slot in the guard are fairly small and light projects.

I bought a PM-30mv and now have that and a Bridgeport clone. I paid much less for the larger, used mill, than the small, new one. You would be better off, particularly where you live, waiting to find a used one.

There is some risk but I honestly think you can tell before you buy. If the machine runs smoothly that’s a good sign. Wind the table back and forth between its limits. How much does the handle torque change over that range? Where that handle is loosest, can you shake the table with your hands? Ideally have a dial test indicator (DTI) on a magnetic-base arm and check the spindle runout. You will spend much less if you can find a reasonable machine and there seem to be many in your area.

Yes, one-piece handle. I think that the picture was meant to show how far the tang would extend into the block of wood. If I was using a wood-working router, I would describe the operation I want to do as a 2 inches deep, 3/4 inch long plunge cut.

Thanks for the info on evaluating a used mill. If checking one out is that straight-forward, I think I might be able to do it.