How to preserve the tool library ?

[edmarwjr]

Hello,
I have a Lenovo Tab M10 Plus 3rd gen
Android 13

TouchDRO V 3.24.06 build 2024-0618

I am new to TouchDRO, started playing with tool library, entered some tool offsets.
A few days later, attempt to use a tool offset, but the tool library is now empty.

OK, I had only 3 tools in the labrary. I started over and added 2 tools again.

I see in the manual that the tool library menu should have a import and a export button, but in my version, those buttons are not there.
Only the "Sort by" drop down menu and the delete button.

How do you import and export tool library on 3.24.06 ?

Also, after setting some tool offset, I cannot clear it. The manual says to long press the tool offset button, but nothing happens. The workaround I found is to invoke tool offset, change to master tool, then the display turns back to green.

Is there a simpler way to cancel tool offset on 3.24.06 ?

Every time I call tool library from menu, the "Sort by" is reseted to "newest first". Is there a way to set it alphabetically, and keep it alphabetically ?

Thanks
Edmar

 

[MidniteMachinist]

Not sure about the rest of your issues, but if you want to export your tool library, you'll need to pay $239-$299 for a TDA-400 or TDA-420 adapter. If you'd like to import your tool library to another machine, you'll have to pay another $239-$299 for a second TDA-400 or TDA-420 adapter, for the second machine.

TouchDRO Plus is the only version of the app that allows for tool library import/export. The Plus version is not available as a standalone app, and will only activate when the "Basic" version handshakes with a TDA-400 or TDA-420 adapter, specifically. The only way get the Plus version on each of your machines, is to buy one of the above adapters for each of your machines.

Basically, if you have 2 machines that use the same tools, it costs a minimum of $478 (plus shipping) to be able to export/import your tool library.

That being said, paper and pencil are relatively cheap. I found my offsets on one machine, wrote them down, and manually entered them on my other machine.

 

[ycroosh]

Hello,
I have a Lenovo Tab M10 Plus 3rd gen
Android 13

TouchDRO V 3.24.06 build 2024-0618

I am new to TouchDRO, started playing with tool library, entered some tool offsets.
A few days later, attempt to use a tool offset, but the tool library is now empty.

OK, I had only 3 tools in the labrary. I started over and added 2 tools again.

I see in the manual that the tool library menu should have a import and a export button, but in my version, those buttons are not there.
Only the "Sort by" drop down menu and the delete button.

How do you import and export tool library on 3.24.06 ?

Also, after setting some tool offset, I cannot clear it. The manual says to long press the tool offset button, but nothing happens. The workaround I found is to invoke tool offset, change to master tool, then the display turns back to green.

Is there a simpler way to cancel tool offset on 3.24.06 ?

Every time I call tool library from menu, the "Sort by" is reseted to "newest first". Is there a way to set it alphabetically, and keep it alphabetically ?

Thanks
Edmar

Edmar,
First of all, TouchDRO should not be loosing tools (this is not a feature). They are stored "on the disk" and should be persistent. I haven't head of this before, so no clue what could be the reason. DB writes are done in a transaction for each tool, so even if the app crashed in the middle of tool creation, it should not clear the whole list. I will try to figure out what could be the cause. Meanwhile, can you confirm that you didn't create a new configuration in between? (tools are configuration-specific).

Import/export is a "plus" feature.

Long pressing the tool offset button should clear the offset. This is a bug. I will fix it for the upcoming release.

I added a "feature request" for persistent sorting.

Regards
Yuriy

 

[ycroosh]

Not sure about the rest of your issues, but if you want to export your tool library, you'll need to pay $239-$299 for a TDA-400 or TDA-420 adapter. If you'd like to import your tool library to another machine, you'll have to pay another $239-$299 for a second TDA-400 or TDA-420 adapter, for the second machine.

TouchDRO Plus is the only version of the app that allows for tool library import/export. The Plus version is not available as a standalone app, and will only activate when the "Basic" version handshakes with a TDA-400 or TDA-420 adapter, specifically. The only way get the Plus version on each of your machines, is to buy one of the above adapters for each of your machines.

Basically, if you have 2 machines that use the same tools, it costs a minimum of $478 (plus shipping) to be able to export/import your tool library.

That being said, paper and pencil are relatively cheap. I found my offsets on one machine, wrote them down, and manually entered them on my other machine.

Well, I get that you are not happy that your 5 TouchDROs that you built from the design that I offer for free and with the free version of TouchDRO app don't have ALL of the possible features. That said, it costs $240-$300+shipping per machine to have a full featured 4-axis DRO adapter with all sorts of features, including touch probe support, all sorts of functionality that no other DRO has, like touch probe automation, bitmap image overlay, file import/export, and more. It also pays for thousands of hours I've spent working on the app, the firmware, and the website that has the said free designs. Just because I give people a way to build 80% of the system for free doesn't mean that I'm obligated to make file import/export free. Just sayin...

Regards
Yuriy

 

[MidniteMachinist]

Every adapter board I have, is a pre-built I bought from you, starting back when it was still Launchpad-based. I think this is an incredible product, and I've always wanted to support your efforts.

I guess I don't understand locking the app behind individual adapters, rather than making the app standalone, and charging for the Plus version. You've laid out your reasoning, and I don't feel like I'm entitled to anything. The issue I have, is that what you're doing feels akin to having to buy a new computer every time I want to install a program, as opposed to purchasing an account or license for personal use, which is the standard for basically every consumer app/program out there. If you're mainly looking to sell to major corporations, where shelling out for a license for each individual machine is a line-item in the budget, or a business expense, I get it. Make your money, man... But we're just hobbyists, here.

You've said a standalone app would have to be expensive. I'm telling you that you can essentially name your price for the app, and we'll pay it. It's worth it, and we want to support this.

 

[ycroosh]

Every adapter board I have, is a pre-built I bought from you, starting back when it was still Launchpad-based. I think this is an incredible product, and I've always wanted to support your efforts.

I guess I don't understand locking the app behind individual adapters, rather than making app standalone, and charging for the Plus version. I mean, you've laid out your reasoning, but what you're doing feels akin to having to buy a new computer every time I want to install a program, as opposed to purchasing an account or license for personal use, which is the standard for basically every consumer app/program out there. If you're mainly looking to sell to major corporations, where shelling out for a license for each individual machine is a line-item in the budget, or a business expense, I get it. But we're just hobbyists here.

You've said a standalone app would have to be expensive. I'm telling you that you can essentially name your price for the app, and we'll pay it. It's worth it, and we want to support this.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I though you had 5 DIY adapters. My bad, I apologize.

Also, I am planning to have an upgrade path for ESp32 based per-made adapters, at least the ones for quadrature scales. I don't know what versions you have, but this might help (it turned out to much more work than I expected, so it's going slowly).

As far as the plus version goes, it's not "locked". For various practical reasons the only viable way for me to release it was to tie the features to the firmware. I have very limited amount of time to work on the app. ESP32-based quadrature adapters account for close to 60% of my total sales. Coincidentally, I know the hardware is compatible and the firmware will be able to handle future updates. This saves a lot of time and effort (at least for the short term).
Adding the infrastructure for standalone purchases, DRM, etc. is a a lot of work. Add the support overhead that will inevitably come from people buying the Plus app, then things not working right with older hardware, etc. (probe stuff is very timing-sensitive, for example), and I won't have time to work on things that I want to add to the app.

As to your point about "having to buy a new computer every time I want to install a program", this is not even close the case. I invest a lot of effort into making the app backwards compatible with old hardware. V2.5-V3 forced my hand due to Google's new requirements, so I dropped support for Android versions 4.0-4.4 (that were released between 20122 and 2013). The next major release will have one Plus feature [native DXF file import] and several updates [non-linear error correction map, and a few others] for the "Free" version (don't know if "Basic" is the right name in the great scheme of things).

Hope this makes sense.

Regards
Yuriy

 

[MidniteMachinist]

Hell, I think I still have my very first adapter kicking around somewhere... An iGaging with mini (not micro) USB ports on it. My shop, and the way I use my machines, has grown alongside TouchDRO.

I get that there are logistics for making a standalone app, and it's not simple. And I know that this is your baby, and you get to work on it how you please. However, just as how offering support for DIY users eats up so much time and is the bane of your existence... If maintaining compatibility with older adapters is impeding progress that much, let them go obsolete. Software always evolves faster than hardware, and eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns.

Sunset the "legacy hardware". Make an older version of the app available to those with older adapters, and move on. This precludes you having to offer support to get a new app working with a legacy adapter, and frees up time to work on making the app even more awesome. If those users with legacy adapters want the latest and greatest, well then they've got to upgrade. I didn't expect Larian to make Baldur's Gate 3 backwards compatible with my 10-year-old PC. I wanted to play it, so I had to upgrade my hardware. It's the nature of progress.

So... You mention the touch probe, which brings me to my other issue:

So, yes, I can use the graphical interface without the tool library, and I can use the tool library without a touch probe... But isn't combining all those into one seamless workflow, kind of the point? You say yourself, that's what sets TouchDRO apart from the generic cheapo import DROs. In my mind, the touch probe is integral. I don't understand why you'd essentially lock a core functionality to only one adapter.

I still stand by my earlier point. I want to continue supporting this, and evolving my shop as TouchDRO continues to get even better. I want to give you my money. But I'm just a hobbyist, with a hobbyist budget. If it's a choice between buying the less expensive adapter and losing touch probe functionality, or going the DIY route and keeping it... The choice is easy.

 

[edmarwjr]

Edmar,
First of all, TouchDRO should not be loosing tools (this is not a feature). They are stored "on the disk" and should be persistent. I haven't head of this before, so no clue what could be the reason. DB writes are done in a transaction for each tool, so even if the app crashed in the middle of tool creation, it should not clear the whole list. I will try to figure out what could be the cause. Meanwhile, can you confirm that you didn't create a new configuration in between? (tools are configuration-specific).

Import/export is a "plus" feature.

Long pressing the tool offset button should clear the offset. This is a bug. I will fix it for the upcoming release.

I added a "feature request" for persistent sorting.

Regards
Yuriy

Hi Yuri,

No I did not changed configurations. Just stoped work one day, and pick it up a few days later.
(I do not have experience working with android. Is it possible to make a backup of the "disk" ? If there is a "command prompt", I can figure it out a way of doing it)

After first reply of this thread, I look into web page documentation, "Touch DRO Plus" tab (1st entry under "Documentation")
and in fact it is listed there that import and export is a new feature of the Plus.

The confusion is that, the app has links into the web based manual. The web manual does not distinguish which features are in the Plus and which ones are not.
So, I look into the web manual, see the import / export there. Go to the app, the buttons are not there, click in the link in the App, and it pops a page that confirms the existence of the import / export buttons.

My suggestions:
1 - First make explicit that the 8th entry under "Documentation" tab in fact refers to the Plus device. (It is clear to me now that you don't have a on line manual that corresponds to the original TouchDRO)
2 - In order to make one single manual to serve two purposes, make more evident that "this" or "that" is a "Plus" feature. (Because I have the original device, I did not bother to read the info in the "Touch DRO Plus" tab. That is why I got lost).

A new issue:
I have been using the TouchDRO for a few months now. I never had connectivity issues. Until I had one, and I am concerned with this one.
I was using the lathe for a few hours, I had the X locked at 1.199 (it was my last operation). In the midle of the turn, I got a disconnection.
I pressed the blue tooth icon, choose my DRO device, re-stablish my connection, (all without crashing the lathe), but the DRO changed the reading on X to 3.2xx something. (BTW, It was not a rad/diameter flip)

I keep the DRO powered on 24/7 just to get a persistent reading of my scales. That jump should never happen.

Suggestion:
1 - Add a "uptime" counter in some little corner in the App. If I get a random disconnect, and/or a random change in the readings, and the "uptime" is reset, I know I have a bad power supply and the DRO rebooted. If the "uptime" is not reset, it is a bug or a bad device.
or even better:
2 - Do you have the "watch dog" enabled in the micro-controller ? That interrupt could be used to signal the App that the current reading is not consistent with previous readings. The flag would stay active, until the user resets it on the App. Same for a soft reset, or a power up reset.

Regards,
Edmar

 

[ycroosh]

Hi Yuri,

No I did not changed configurations. Just stoped work one day, and pick it up a few days later.
(I do not have experience working with android. Is it possible to make a backup of the "disk" ? If there is a "command prompt", I can figure it out a way of doing it)

After first reply of this thread, I look into web page documentation, "Touch DRO Plus" tab (1st entry under "Documentation")
and in fact it is listed there that import and export is a new feature of the Plus.

The confusion is that, the app has links into the web based manual. The web manual does not distinguish which features are in the Plus and which ones are not.
So, I look into the web manual, see the import / export there. Go to the app, the buttons are not there, click in the link in the App, and it pops a page that confirms the existence of the import / export buttons.

My suggestions:
1 - First make explicit that the 8th entry under "Documentation" tab in fact refers to the Plus device. (It is clear to me now that you don't have a on line manual that corresponds to the original TouchDRO)
2 - In order to make one single manual to serve two purposes, make more evident that "this" or "that" is a "Plus" feature. (Because I have the original device, I did not bother to read the info in the "Touch DRO Plus" tab. That is why I got lost).

A new issue:
I have been using the TouchDRO for a few months now. I never had connectivity issues. Until I had one, and I am concerned with this one.
I was using the lathe for a few hours, I had the X locked at 1.199 (it was my last operation). In the midle of the turn, I got a disconnection.
I pressed the blue tooth icon, choose my DRO device, re-stablish my connection, (all without crashing the lathe), but the DRO changed the reading on X to 3.2xx something. (BTW, It was not a rad/diameter flip)

I keep the DRO powered on 24/7 just to get a persistent reading of my scales. That jump should never happen.

Suggestion:
1 - Add a "uptime" counter in some little corner in the App. If I get a random disconnect, and/or a random change in the readings, and the "uptime" is reset, I know I have a bad power supply and the DRO rebooted. If the "uptime" is not reset, it is a bug or a bad device.
or even better:
2 - Do you have the "watch dog" enabled in the micro-controller ? That interrupt could be used to signal the App that the current reading is not consistent with previous readings. The flag would stay active, until the user resets it on the App. Same for a soft reset, or a power up reset.

Regards,
Edmar

Edmar,
I can't explain how the tools disappeared, unfortunately. This should not be possible. I tried to simulate/force various disaster scenarios, and can't get the DB to do this. I made a note in my "bug list", but given that this is the first and only time I've head of the issue, I can't do much at the moment

I will add some sort of indication to the manual to separate Plus features.

As far as the new issue goes, what you are describing sounds like the adapter lost power/got reset. If there was no problem with the mains (lights flickering, etc.), check the connections. May be the power connector got loose? Another possibility would be a short in the 5V line. I have seen one case where a loose strand of shield wire intermittently shorted to 5V in the scale's D-Sub connector. Basically, a brief power loss would "brown out" the chip and it will loose the position (and drop the connection, obviously).

The "V3" firmware sends a time stamp with each data stream. The app uses it for velocity calculations, etc. but not for brownout detection. I like your idea, though. Added it to my "todo list".
Unfortunately, it looks like you have pre V3 adapter, which doesn't send the time stamp.

For #2, it wouldn't help. When the chip resets, it looses the memory and the watchdog won't help much. TDA-4xx adapters have brownout detection and will save the position to EEPROM on power loss (as long as the axis was stationary for some seconds). Since your adapter restarted in the middle of a turn, that would not help either.

With quadrature adapters (any generation), connection loss is 99% of the time because of power loss, which means readouts will be likely be lost.

Regards
Yuriy