Help me learn what CNC machine I need

[Investigator]

It's a long story, but the basics are this; I'm about to retire from my Fire Department. I don't need to work in retirement, but I have lot's of things I want to do. My tentative plan is to start my own Firearms Manufacturing business. Business plan aside, I am trying to decide if it is financially possible. The parts I will need to make are suppressor parts and accessories. Specifically suppressor baffles and muzzle brakes. For example:


These are designs by established companies, but the general design idea is there. I've made these on my own manual machines for "Form 1" use. If I start a business I need to build them faster, hence the need for CNC. I know how to build them, but as of my knowledge it would take turning on a lathe and then a second op on a milling machine to cut some of the features.

What CNC machine could I use to do these in one setup? A turning center I think...but....For a start up business are there affordable options? I've looked at some turning centers and I can't justify $200K in machine to get started.

Material would include Gr5 Ti, 17-4ss, and some 4140 pre hard. Diameters would be up to 1.75" for the bar stock capacity if possible.

I have strongly considered the Tormach 15L slant bed lathe. But the capacity is 1.5" which is not a deal breaker but doesn't give me all the options I want. Going that way would mean likely a Tormach 770 mill for the second ops cutting the ports and cross bore features. Those 2 new from Tormach would cost around $60k.

My biggest problem is I don't know enough about any CNC manufacturers to know really what my options are.

 

[Smithdoor]

The first question is how many 1 to 100,000.

The other I have had lot time in machine work.

Dave

 

[Investigator]

The first question is how many 1 to 100,000.

The other I have had lot time in machine work.

Dave

How many parts per? not sure if that's what you're asking or something else.
Obviously it will depend on demand and sales. I'm estimating (read hoping for) 1000 baffles and 50 muzzle brakes per month. Hopefully that number will increase.

 

[mmcmdl]

Need a cnc lathe with live tooling to do these in 1 or 2 set-ups .

 

[Smithdoor]

A will come down to your back ground.
The CNC problem best option. But also more costly and longer learning time.

I would take gust your photos are someone else designe .
By changing you can make it cheaper and do not need CNC. It will be a headache for new at this work.

Dave

 

[Alexander McGilton]

Something to put in mind and why, Dave in a prior post referenced the qty, is that productivity goes exponentially up with investment. Not linearly. A good live tooling turning center with bar feeder will make 50 simple parts per hour not per month. But that machine will cost you your house.

If I was in your position. I would forget the cnc lathe altogether. And get one good 5axis mill. Like the Haas mini mill with the 5axis addition. Use the 5axis mill to make your original prototypes and initial iteration. Test the prototype to satisfaction.

Then make a bulk order of a 100 plus units to a cnc job shop who has the aforementioned bar fed y axis lathe. Bring the parts home for the finishing operations on the 5axis. Make those finishing touches proprietary to your brand. This also allows you to make different reiterations as you consume from your first bulk order.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

It would be not a bad idea to attend a cnc machining course at a college or trade school. A less than one year intensive. If not to get you going faster, but will give you a boost to productivity throughout your work.

 

[mmcmdl]

There are used Haas's around fairly reasonable . I consider these the throwaway CNC machines but the price isn't bad . You can go upwards of a mil or more for Doosans and the like that will last forever .

 

[Chipper5783]

May need more information. Have you limitations on space, power, ability to move heavier machines. Are you comfortable repairing older machines? Are you okay messing with electrical/electronics/old computers? Are you comfortable G-coding directly? Are you insisting on having / using up to date modelling software and post processors?

If you have the space, power and ability to move moderately heavy/decent sized machines, then you can get extremely good value from cast off industrial machines. There is greater risk in this option, and you will need to do repairs. I have worked with manual machines for a long time (hobby basis) and started getting into CNC about 6 years ago. Granted everyone’s experience will be different, for me it has been very positive. I have about $15k total into my VMC (a good sized, 4 axis machine, now pretty well dressed out), the lathe is still pretty bare (but running and making chips) another $2.6k into it. When I first got the VMC, I thought it was huge - not so, it is really easy to gobble up a work envelope. I have a nice garage space, nothing special for power (100amp, 240v, single phase), I’ve added a phase converter.

Granted, if a critical part goes up in smoke, then all I have is scrap metal - but my full spend will be about $25k (Canadian dollars at that), for two well dressed CNC machines. There are post processors available for these machines, but I have not bothered - l am now comfortable G-coding directly (it was a lot of reading the manual and tentatively trying stuff, but I don’t mind that).

 

[mmcmdl]

Forgot to mention this . Back when I was looking for cnc lathes I found out most companies have lease to own options . You may want to check into this and find out how many of these parts will actually sell . I'm positive I could support a cnc lathe for 40 hours a week but not making suppressors or muzzle brakes . Industry needs all kinds of machined parts made quickly with the supply chain issues that we have now . I decided against the machine and retired . Too late in life to get everything started once again . YMMV .

 

[JimDawson]

Man, you have opened a can of worms.

I agree with @mmcmdl, a Haas ST-15-Y would work for your application, but they are a throwaway machine. To buy new, you are looking at way north $100K by the time it's on your floor and ready to make chips. So buying used is the way to go.

Your best bet is to look on eBay for a CNC lathe, with Y axis, sub-spindle, and a 2 or 2.5'' bore. You would be able to make all of the parts you show in the pictures in one setup. Any of the major brand machines will work, they are seriously over built. As long as they have been properly lubricated, they will pretty much last forever. Hardinge Conquest T51 would be a good choice. I have a Conquest 42 that I am very happy with, but only a 1 5/8 spindle.