Choices for New Lathe for Newbie

[ACHiPo]

I've been scouring CL and the web in search of a good starter (and finisher) lathe. I've found a few options, and would like feedback/guidance from the august members here (ok, so I'm not too proud to suck up )

1. Craftsman Commercial 12/36 Correction: 101.28990
(last model Atlas, heaviest ways of all Atlas lathes, QCGB). This is a CL listing that I've yet to look at, but from the pictures seems like it's in decent shape. I also have yet to find out what tooling is included. The asking price is $1200, but I suspect it's fairly negotiable. Pretty much what I had in mind as a starter lathe, but I'm not sure it qualifies as a "finisher".

2. New Acra 13/40 gap bed (Chinese) from local dealer. Like that there's someone local to talk to if (when) there are problems. A full-fledged (albeit entry level) production lathe. $5600 with just 3 and 4 jaw chucks and rests and light, or $6500 with 2-axis DRO and QC tooling, live center, etc.

3. Famot (Poland) 14/40 from local dealer (used). Good BISON 8” 3 JAW CHUCK (POLAND), 10” 4 JAW CHUCK (GERMANY) KDK QC toolpost + 9 HOLDERS, TAPER ATTACHMENT, LIVE CENTER, TRAVADIAL, INCH / METRIC DIALS, CLEANED, CYCLED, FRESHLY PAINTED, 4 HP 3-phase motor (will need VFD), 28 to 2500 RPM. $4500.

The Acra and Famot are both way more than I wanted to spend. I really liked the idea of the Weiss 11x29 with DRO for $3500 delivered, but I don't like the Weiss so-called QCGB, so have written them off. There are other lathes out there that are variants of the Acra for +/- the money. (The same local dealer had a really sweet looking Caseneuve, but I was warned off it as a "collector's piece")

I can always keep looking for the ideal Heavy 10 or similar. I've gotta say the Famot is calling my name, but it seems like an awful lot of machine for me.

Guidance?

 

[Chipper5783]

It does not really matter. Any one of those will be just fine. The main point is to get moving and get in the game. Don't paralyze yourself with analysis. If I had those three choices when I bought my first lathe (30+ years ago), and knew then what I know now - the Famot would be the clear winner. It really does not matter where you go with your machining activities, that would always be in a position to contribute (or sell along with very little money lost). The only thing that would make me nervous is that coat of fresh paint. However, it is clearly a tough, industrial machine (3x the weight of the Acra) - so long as it does not look horrible, then you'll most likely be able to fix the hidden issues. The Famot's got a very nice speed range (a low speed of 28 rpm is very nice - the bottom end of the Acra is 70 rpm - I don't like that). I'm not sure why you "need" a VFD - 16 speeds, well spread out really covers the map? I have one VFD machine and 4 machines running off an RPC. The VFD is fine, but certainly not a game changer.

I spent way too much on my first lathe. That was a long time ago, I still have that lathe, I use it lots and I have long since forgotten what it was I would otherwise have spent that money on. Buy the better lathe (#3) and get making chips.

 

[ACHiPo]

It does not really matter. Any one of those will be just fine. The main point is to get moving and get in the game. Don't paralyze yourself with analysis. If I had those three choices when I bought my first lathe (30+ years ago), and knew then what I know now - the Famot would be the clear winner. It really does not matter where you go with your machining activities, that would always be in a position to contribute (or sell along with very little money lost). The only thing that would make me nervous is that coat of fresh paint. However, it is clearly a tough, industrial machine (3x the weight of the Acra) - so long as it does not look horrible, then you'll most likely be able to fix the hidden issues. The Famot's got a very nice speed range (a low speed of 28 rpm is very nice - the bottom end of the Acra is 70 rpm - I don't like that). I'm not sure why you "need" a VFD - 16 speeds, well spread out really covers the map? I have one VFD machine and 4 machines running off an RPC. The VFD is fine, but certainly not a game changer.

I spent way too much on my first lathe. That was a long time ago, I still have that lathe, I use it lots and I have long since forgotten what it was I would otherwise have spent that money on. Buy the better lathe (#3) and get making chips.

Thanks! The original owner of the Famot is local as well. Given your encouragement I'll look him up and find out more of the history. Maybe he'll even have pictures before the paint.

Should I be concerned with the original factory being "long out of business" or the relative unknown Polish brand?

The other thing that is causing me to hesitate is that I think I want to remove a couple walls and a closet in my shop, as the lathe will need to be permanently placed and my other tools are mobile,

 

[mikey]

I'm going to stir the pot here and ask what you plan to do with your new lathe. I get the "buy the biggest lathe you can afford" thing but realistically, what do YOU plan to do with it? I'm going to guess that the majority of hobby machinists who have followed the bigger is better concept end up doing work on the small scale 90+% of the time. The idea that you "could" make something or you "might" make something big is fine but if you realistically look at what you want to do with it, that is more valuable than other people's opinion, in my opinion.

I've seen a fair bit of this "you can make small parts on a big lathe but you can't make big parts on a small lathe" thing lately and I wonder at the wisdom of that advice, especially when advising new guys who don't even know if they'll like cutting metal. I can make a small precision part faster, more accurately and with a better finish on my little Sherline lathe than I can on my 11" lathe and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that. I suspect that many of the guys who give the big lathe is better advice never ever worked on a small precision lathe before. I also suspect that the majority of the work they do is in the bottom 50% of the size range their big lathes are capable of. Ever heard the cliche' about having the right tool for the job?

My point is that you need to think hard about what you plan to do with the machine. Sure, there will be some uncertainty but be realistic and don't go bigger than you need. Then buy the best machine you can afford in that size range.

 

[mksj]

At the price of those lathes you can get a new 1340GT or for less an Acura 1340 GSM or PM1440BV with similar equipment. As one starting out with a lathe I would be a bit more concerned on knowing the condition of the machine and parts availability. The older Acra may be Taiwanese, the newer ones are made in China so may be a bit rougher fit and finish. At 5K the PM1440 comes fully equipped. http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440.html , there are a number of options but it depends on your work scope and what you want in a machine. On the Famot I would go with an RPC, a VFD is more complex to install and it will get pricey quickly with something rated at 4HP output with single phase input.

 

[ACHiPo]

I'm going to stir the pot here and ask what you plan to do with your new lathe. I get the "buy the biggest lathe you can afford" thing but realistically, what do YOU plan to do with it? I'm going to guess that the majority of hobby machinists who have followed the bigger is better concept end up doing work on the small scale 90+% of the time. The idea that you "could" make something or you "might" make something big is fine but if you realistically look at what you want to do with it, that is more valuable than other people's opinion, in my opinion.

I've seen a fair bit of this "you can make small parts on a big lathe but you can't make big parts on a small lathe" thing lately and I wonder at the wisdom of that advice, especially when advising new guys who don't even know if they'll like cutting metal. I can make a small precision part faster, more accurately and with a better finish on my little Sherline lathe than I can on my 11" lathe and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that. I suspect that many of the guys who give the big lathe is better advice never ever worked on a small precision lathe before. I also suspect that the majority of the work they do is in the bottom 50% of the size range their big lathes are capable of. Ever heard the cliche' about having the right tool for the job?

My point is that you need to think hard about what you plan to do with the machine. Sure, there will be some uncertainty but be realistic and don't go bigger than you need. Then buy the best machine you can afford in that size range.

Mikey,
Several good questions and points. Thanks!

At this point, I don't know what I don't know, which is why there's not an obvious direction for me to go.

I've wanted to learn machining for many years, and always thought that a well-made 3-in-1 machine would be perfect for my needs--something that was compact, flexible, and let me experiment and learn. Of course "nearly everyone" says that 3-in-1s aren't that well-made and are a poor compromise. I found what is arguably the best--an Emco Maximat 7--which seemed perfect for me, if I could only figure out how to get it shipped and delivered across the country. Well that got the compulsion going, so after giving up on the Maximat I found the Weiss machines which looked perfect until I looked harder at their quick-change gears, which is why I'm looking at larger machines, the smallest of which is the Atlas/Craftsman. Of course once I started looking at bigger machines I see the shortcomings of the Atlas. Deeper down the rabbit hole I go...

I've seen a few solid smaller lathes (eg Jet 10x20), but they go blazingly fast.

The search continues...

Thanks,

Evan

 

[ACHiPo]

At the price of those lathes you can get a new 1340GT or for less an Acura 1340 GSM or PM1440BV with similar equipment. As one starting out with a lathe I would be a bit more concerned on knowing the condition of the machine and parts availability. The older Acra may be Taiwanese, the newer ones are made in China so may be a bit rougher fit and finish. At 5K the PM1440 comes fully equipped. http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440.html , there are a number of options but it depends on your work scope and what you want in a machine. On the Famot I would go with an RPC, a VFD is more complex to install and it will get pricey quickly with something rated at 4HP output with single phase input.

The Famot "looks" nice and in good condition with little signs of wear, but I will definitely need to go through it with a fine-tooth comb. It looks like Mori bought Famot, but I'm not sure of parts availability--I assume they're unobtanium.

The Acra is a Chinese machine. The brand seems to have a decent reputation, but it all depends on the luck of the draw given Chinese QC. I would be getting the floor model, so it's all set up and I can test it out before I buy, but given that I don't know anything, I'm not sure what good that will do.

I've heard lots of good things about PM, but I'm not crazy about dealing with someone across the country.

Good point on the RPC vs. VFD--I hadn't gotten to that level of detail, I just know that I'll need to spend another $1k or so making the 3 phase run on my single phase power.

 

[ACHiPo]

At the price of those lathes you can get a new 1340GT or for less an Acura 1340 GSM or PM1440BV with similar equipment. As one starting out with a lathe I would be a bit more concerned on knowing the condition of the machine and parts availability. The older Acra may be Taiwanese, the newer ones are made in China so may be a bit rougher fit and finish. At 5K the PM1440 comes fully equipped. http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440.html , there are a number of options but it depends on your work scope and what you want in a machine. On the Famot I would go with an RPC, a VFD is more complex to install and it will get pricey quickly with something rated at 4HP output with single phase input.

There are a lot of choices in the $5k and up range--the Acra is sold locally so that seems like a plus.

I'm certainly no expert, but it looks like I can get a 10 HP VFD (should be more than enough to run a 4 HP motor?) for about $300, while a 5 HP RPC is ~$1k. What am I missing?

 

[Mikesal]

I think I got lucky on my first lathe. Went to a "going out of business" auction & got a nice 13x40 Enco with single phase motor, for $1100 bucks. I've used the heck out of it & didn't have the hassle of running 3 phase power. Not sure what the auction situations in your area are like, but seems that now that scrap prices have cooled off a little, you can get some bargains if you're patient.
Mike Sal

 

[Glenn Brooks]

As others have said, The biggest thing is buy something in decent shape and then, big enuf to do the kind of work you envision.

check the condition of the lathe - no growling noise coming from the headstock, not excessive bed wear, etc. lots of threads here and on Chaski.org about lathe condition. Remember, if the seller says he has never had any problems with an old used lathe, he's very likely hiding the truth and trying to dump it. Every lathe has wear and tear to some extent. New paint means a lot of wear on an old lathe. But there are some really nice old machines around. They do come up for sale every so often.