Buying a lathe, sight unseen

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DMS

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I'm posting this under the Monarch section, because I have been looking at Monarch 10EEs, as well as Hardinge HLV and DV59s. The pickings around here (Silicon Valley) are pretty slim when it comes to used machines, and when they do come up, the prices are significantly higher than what you would see in most other places.

That leads me to the big-boy (and girl) candy store that you may know as Ebay. Lots more machines there, most of them far, far away from me. Some seem a pretty good deal, but I have no way to lay my hands on them before purchasing.

So that's the question, is it just plain stupid to purchase a machine from halfway across the country without seeing it run? While I'm on the topic, anybody know (approximately) what the freight charges would be on a 3000lb lathe, halfway across the country?

I'm looking more closely at the 10EE, as opposed to the HLV, because I have been seening lots of 10EEs for under 4k, whereas all the hardinge lathes I have seen (other than the HCs) have been going up and up and up... I think I would be more comfortable with the HLV, because the sheer size of the 10EE intimidates me to be honest.

The last thing I will ask (as if there are not enough questions in this post). I see references to the spindle bearings in the 10EEs being "real expensive". But I can't find a price, or even a part number. Anybody have any idea how much these go for?

DMS
 
DMS

I can understand the spot it puts you in when you cant get out to see the machines. I know zip about the HLV . The 10EE I have done a fair bit of research on, only because a friend of mine purchased one a year ago.

Really, I would not think about purchasing any machine I can,t first veiw and if Im paying the long dollar, I would have to see it running. Other wise your taking a huge gamble on the deal being what you vision it being.

The 10EE is a tool room lathe that is regarded as a top runner in its class. But, they do seem to have issues of there own, that can lead to you spending a fairly substantial chunk of change on the machine after the fact.

As you probably allready know, the 10EE can be trouble some with the electrics. Depending on the yr of the machine, they had many different setups over the yrs. Some easyer to deal with than others.

It seems as time marched on, Monarch made alot of changes over the production period they built them. The basic machine has remained the same, but what they kept changing was the power. Motor/Gen , WIAD, Tubes, HP ratings up to 10 hp without the back gear. Many of these machines have needed a complete retro fit of the motor, and back gearbox.

From what I understand, the 10EE head stock isnt overly complicated, and seems many have gone into it replacing spindle bearings, noteably the LH end.
The 10EE has long been a lathe many regard as the best, but you should investigate the common problems they have, and ask your self,if your ready to deal with these issues? PM has a Monarch section over there, and you will find good infro on the different things that changed on a 10EE over the years.

Cost for shipping, or spindle bearings is something you will have to do the calls and check out. Any parts for the 10EE seem to demand hi prices.

But, as allready said, I wouldnt buy any machine I could go look at personally. I would be shy about a purchase that I couldnt see running either. Incase you didnt know, they produced the 10EE with a variety of spindle RPM ranges, and if im not mistaken, not all can be run on RPC or such. And must have 3 phase power, or a phase Perfect unit drive them.

Good luck with your hunt for the new Lathe. Hope you get a goodone ;)
By the way, the 10EE isnt a big lathe, though 3000 pounds, its just a little guy.
 
If it weighs more than my car, it's not insignificant, though, I agree, not a "big" lathe.

I'm not scared about the electronics, I am pretty comfortable replacing the motor with a 3 phase motor and VFD. I am more concerned with the mysterious spindle bearings. I saw one post on PM I think, that listed 7210 bearings (50mm shaft diameter). Those aren't too bad price wise, but the lathes.co.uk site lists the bearing as a 60mm shaft diameter.

I tried to get a quote from the ups site, though, that scared me a bit, as they listed around 4k from Minnesota.. and that doesn't seem right at all, given what you can ship a new Grizzly or Enco for.

Oh well, back to looking. I just saw a hardinge clone pop up today, a bit more than I want to pay, but maybe it's worth it.
 
The Monarch 10EE is a VERY nice lathe. Huge amount of power, great accuracy, Gibraltar rigidity. It's also VERY heavy. I hope this won't go into a basement shop...

In any case, I agree about the electronics. We have two 10EE's at work, both with the vacuum tube speed controllers. Both machines have needed some TLC over the years with regard to the circuitry. Internally it's a nightmare of wiring, relays, contactors, etc.

As I am the EE, I've become adept at fixing them and have come to understand the workings of the circuit and repair of same. If you end up with a disaster, I think I might be able to guide you out of it.

In any case, here is a link to the service manual for that lathe with schematics, lubrication intervals and instructions, etc...

http://bbssystem.com/viewtopic.php?t=1507

John
 
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Thanks John,

No, not a basement shop, it's a garage, with a pretty solid slab. I already have a knee mill in there, so the floor shouldn't be an issue.
 
I wonder what the deal is with the spindle bearings. Are they still obtainable?

Just another thing you might want to search out. Motor swap and VFD can be more work, depending on your choice of motor. You still have to deal with the gearbox for backgear.

Some end up extending the motor shaft, and a fairly thick adapter plate to mount the gearbox 3/4 to 1 inch thick. Others have payed the long dollar for a motor that needs no shaft extention, but need to turn the diameter down. And yet others have used a vector drive motor, and not used the gearbox. The factory has used 10 hp without the gearbox.
 
Based on the manual John linked, I found the Monarch part number for the bearing set, which led to another site that discused modern replacements. Looks like they are (more or less) 7210s, with the front bearing having a flange.

There is a lathe in Michigan starting at under 1.5k, that nobody has bid on.. if it stays that way, and I can get it here for less than 2k, it may still be worth it.
 
I know very little about Hardinge lathes, so I can’t offer any advice on the merits of a Hardinge vs. a Monarch 10EE. I know my way around 10EEs, particularly the older “round-dial” machines and those with the motor/generator (MG) drive.

IMHO, the 10EE is the battleship of the small tool room lathe. They are virtually indestructible and built to be repaired almost forever. There are thousands of 10EEs that are two thirds of a century old and still able to do very accurate work. Monarch is still in business and can provide parts for the newer “square-dial” machines and many parts for the round-dials as well.

The advantages of a 10EE include:
• Massive construction
• The design allows most components to be rebuilt again and again
• Variable speed
• Incredible torque, even at speeds as low as 8 RPM
• 65+ year record of reliability
• Still in production!
• Original manufacturer support
• Large peer support community providing 7 day a week help
• Ready availability of parts and tooling

I disagree with the statements above that 10EEs have “troublesome” electronics. The fact that so many of the original drives are still in service is a testament to how reliable they are. Most of the drive problems are simple things like a loose wire, a bad resistor or worn brushes and are rarely inexpensive to fix. There are plenty of knowledgeable people in the 10EE user community who will patiently help you diagnose and fix a problem; but you need patience too. (I’ve helped guys in the middle of a job get back on line in a few hours, on a weekend!) Sadly, too many machinist types have no patience for things they don’t understand and will rip out a perfectly good control system and stuff in an AC motor and VFD.

With the exception of very sophisticated motors with encoder feedback, an AC motor is NOT an upgrade for a 10EE. An AC motor with VFD does not have the power and speed range that the stock DC motor provides. The engineers at Monarch knew what they were doing and built controls that will outlive them all. On the other hand, most VFD manufactures can’t repair their own boards once they are out of warranty, often because some component or other is no longer available. Monarch tried VFD drives on some of their rebuilt machines and they were not that successful.

Don’t worry about the spindle bearings. In my experience it’s very rare for a 10EE to have bad spindle bearings. There’s no need to try to solve problems that don’t exist.

Shipping from the Midwest to the west coast is not going to be cheap. I would be stunned if cost less than $500. Just a guess, but I would expect you to pay closer to $1000, maybe a lot more given the cost of fuel and the fact that you’re in a state with truly ridiculous environmental regs that are causing some carriers to stay out of CA. Here’s a list of freight quoting companies that can give you a better idea:


I assume that this is the eBay machine that you’re looking at:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MONARCH-MODEL-EE-LATHE-TOOLROOM-LATHE-GOOD-WORKING-CONDITION-/200833851166

This is an early model “square-dial” and appears to have originally had a motor/generator drive. (The term “square-dial” comes from the shape of the plate on the quick change [QC] gearbox.) It has the electric leadscrew reverse (ELSR) option and appears to have an accumulating cross-feed dial; both of which are desirable features. (The ELSR option is nice if you are doing repetitive threading operations but is more trouble than it’s worth for onesie twosie work.) It’s an inch only machine; there is an “inch/metric” version which is highly sought after. It has the standard 20” bed; 30” models were produced. It does not have a taper attachment. Overall, this is not a dream machine with all the sought after bells and whistles, but I’ll be surprised if it goes for less than $2k. I wouldn’t pay more than $2500 for it with no tooling.

There are two people bidding on it now and probably a few bidders using sniping software as well. If you’re going to bid, do yourself a favor and use something like esnipe; figure out what you’re willing to pay, put your max bid into esnipe and walk away until the auction is over. If you’re planning on manually adjusting your bid at the last minute you will loose. Early bidding just drives up the price.

Personally, I wouldn’t pay anywhere close to $4k for a machine unless I or someone I trust had inspected it. I’m helping a man now with an eBay machine from a seller with a good reputation that sold the machine in “good working condition”; it showed up with no brushes in the spindle motor and a blown aftermarket DC controller. If I were to buy a machine sight unseen, I wouldn’t pay more than I would for a parts machine.

Machines are available on the west coast; Reliable in LA recently sold a very nice round-dial, with more cool options than I’ve ever seen on one machine, for $2500. My advice is to be patient and wait for the right machine to come along. Watch Craigslist, government and local auctions, etc. and one will come along in due course

Cal
 
Re: Buying a lathe, sight unseen - 10EE MG drive

I meant to comment on the eBay machine’s drive…

The motor/generator (MG) drive is very robust. About the only things that go wrong with this vintage are brushes, resistors and exciters. Brushes are available from Monarch and are reasonably priced. The DC control panel used on square-dial 10EEs with MGs has 3 resistors in the upper right corner. Apparently they are a bit under sized, wattage wise, and cook themselves to death over several decades. Replacement resistors are readily available from any large supplier like Newark; a set costs under $30. The DC exciter, which provides voltage for the spindle motor and DC generator field as well as power for the DC control panel can fail. My new theory is that some of these failures are related to the exciter’s shunt field resistor, which is often located away from the exciter. A failed exciter can be replaced by a simple bridge rectifier for under $10.

Some users complain about the steady roar of the MG’s ventilation fan. It’s not so loud that you can’t easily carry on a conversation while standing next to the machine, but some guys don’t like it. I think the roar is awesome, like having my own fighter jet. One day I mean to investigate changing or replacing the fan as a way to eliminate the noise complaint; it won’t be tough to do. There is also the option of remotely locating the MG in another room.

Cal
 
Sorry, I missed your responses to the thread. Yep, that was the lathe I was looking at. Ended up selling for over 3k. At that price, the risk would not have been worth it. I did manage to find one more local. It's a 1956 with the "works in a draw" electron tube drive. Impressively quiet. Still working on transport (just saw it yesterday, and gave the guy a deposit).
 
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