Brand new here - seeking some knowledge !

[Morrow96]

Hello all, I am a brand new member here.

I am a firearms collector and the last few days I've been pondering something that would require a machinist. I have joined this forum to seek knowledge from you guys.

As someone who knows NOTHING about this stuff, I am looking for the practicality/difficulty/effectiveness of what I am wanting to do. You will not hurt my feelings, I have no knowledge to begin with regarding this profession.

Question time....


This weapon that you see pictured above is from WW2, and the scope was held in place by 2 rings just like most sniper rifles you see today. They called the mounting system a "claw mount" since they notched the base so that the bottom of the rings which resembled a "claw" could fit snug. These rings and bases therefore were cut together and were not interchangeable with others of the same kind. None of that really matters for my question, but long story short...you cant buy these original parts and assembly "repro" snipers like you can with 99% of the other stuff.

Many years ago they made reproductions of these rings for collectors like myself, the only problem is they (not sure who made them) only made about 6. I am currently in contact with a lucky individual who HAS a pair of these rings. (Below is a picture)

My question is...if I can get ahold of the actual physical item, how easily can I have a machinist duplicate and make more? Are there commercial companies that do this type of work? Are there minimums affiliated with this stuff and therefore cost an arm and leg to get done? I just need guidance and knowledge. I live in Dallas so I'm sure there are no shortage of professionals around me, but I want to start this journey with you folks here on the forums.

In addition, he is reluctant to let me borrow these incredibly valuable rings due to there scarcity. Is his reluctance justified? Would a part be damaged/messed with/scratched in any way in order for a machinist to get what he needs to get to recreate it? I'm guessing there are scanners similar to 3D printers or something and the machinist would not damage his original part in any way. That is very important.

I am at the very early stages and just looking for feedback.

How advanced of a company/machine would it take to do this? What kind of budget figure am I looking at? The part doesn't seem too complicated, but I'm not sure.

Any replies are greatly appreciated.

Have a blessed day
Tyler

 

[markba633csi]

My feeling is those parts would be time consuming to make with manual machines- the originals were probably cnc'd
so to make them manually would be more money than you would want to spend- My first impression anyhow
-Mark

 

[Morrow96]

So then does my question still stand, but changed to "have a machinist cnc it?"

 

[RJSakowski]

What you are asking for is for someone to reverse engineer an existing design and then manufacture a set. By reverse engineer, I mean using an existing design, make a set of drawings and specifications such that a machinist could faithfully reproduce them.

It would be virtually impossible to make an accurate reproduction without hands on of the originals. In addition to the visual aspect, there will be some fairly stringent dimensional requirements in order to properly mate with both the rifle and the scope.

Assuming that one could get their hands on an original set, there are some fairly complex features that would best be done with a CNC mill. More than likely, special tooling will be required and the setup time for a single set would most likely exceed the cost of machining.

 

[Morrow96]

What you are asking for is for someone to reverse engineer an existing design and then manufacture a set. By reverse engineer, I mean using an existing design, make a set of drawings and specifications such that a machinist could faithfully reproduce them.

It would be virtually impossible to make an accurate reproduction without hands on of the originals. In addition to the visual aspect, there will be some fairly stringent dimensional requirements in order to properly mate with both the rifle and the scope.

Assuming that one could get their hands on an original set, there are some fairly complex features that would best be done with a CNC mill. More than likely, special tooling will be required and the setup time for a single set would most likely exceed the cost of machining.

Appreciate the reply!

I am quite confused. Didn't whoever make the repro rings also have to reverse engineer? I would be able to get the rings I sent in the picture. So what's the difference between someone taking the original ww2 part and making the shiny rings I attached in the original thread, and me taking that reproduction set and making more? Basically I am trying to do exactly what someone else did

And unless we are talking more than like 3 thousand to make, im not worried about the cost.

 

[RJSakowski]

Appreciate the reply!

I am quite confused. Didn't whoever make the repro rings also have to reverse engineer? I would be able to get the rings I sent in the picture. So what's the difference between someone taking the original ww2 part and making the shiny rings I attached in the original thread, and me taking that reproduction set and making more? Basically I am trying to do exactly what someone else did

And unless we are talking more than like 3 thousand to make, im not worried about the cost.

Presumably, the repro maker was able to get their hands on a set of originals. Any reverse engineered product will deviate slightly from the original so working off a repro would more than likely stray further from the original. As a collector, you will want the repro to be as close to the original as possible in both appearance and function. If you are only concerned with function, the task is much easier. Having the mating parts at hand and a general description/sketch of the product would suffice.

As to cost, if your budget is $3K or less, you more than likely to find someone to make a pair for you. If you can borrow a set to be reproduced, it can be scanned and a virtual 3D model so the machining program can be created.

 

[Mitch Alsup]

a) My guess is that the original WW2 rings spent more time in a lathe than on a mill.
b) do you need to consider making indentations on the action for the rings to grab?

But, yes, given the desire to make a successful pair of rings and the equiment and tooling to pull the job off, all you need is raw materials and some measuring tools.

 

[Morrow96]

a) My guess is that the original WW2 rings spent more time in a lathe than on a mill.
b) do you need to consider making indentations on the action for the rings to grab?

But, yes, given the desire to make a successful pair of rings and the equiment and tooling to pull the job off, all you need is raw materials and some measuring tools.

Each ring grabs onto a "base". The bases are apart of the set and they can be seen in the photo.

In terms of the actual gunsmithing, I have a gunsmith for that. I just need to make the parts.

And yes, if I have the literal item in hand to give to the machinist and say "make this", I cant think that there would be any issues.

 

[Morrow96]

Presumably, the repro maker was able to get their hands on a set of originals. Any reverse engineered product will deviate slightly from the original so working off a repro would more than likely stray further from the original. As a collector, you will want the repro to be as close to the original as possible in both appearance and function. If you are only concerned with function, the task is much easier. Having the mating parts at hand and a general description/sketch of the product would suffice.

As to cost, if your budget is $3K or less, you more than likely to find someone to make a pair for you. If you can borrow a set to be reproduced, it can be scanned and a virtual 3D model so the machining program can be created.

Does it matter who I go to or should I just start calling machine shops near me?

 

[RJSakowski]

If there is a machine shop supplier near you, you might give them a call to see if they can recommend someone. You will want a small shop but someone who has the capability to reverse engineer your sample. Ideally, that would be someone with a 3D laser scanner but a reasable replica could be done manually. The shop should also have CNC machining capability. If you find a candidate, you should have a look at swome of their work. Not all machinists are created equal.