Are offset holders useful in PM's BXA Master turning/Boring Set?

[skcncx]

Are the offset holders (pic below) useful and worth having?

They make use of the normally unused portion of the CCMT/CCGT inserts.

I'm trying to land what set of tools/inserts I plan to start with. The PM's BXA master turning set (or the AXA master set with 1/2" shanks) seems like a great deal, but wondering how useful these extra tools are and if money is better spent on other individual holders.

I've added the BXA QCTP and 6 extra of the BXA 250-201 XL holders on my lathe order. I mostly turn 6000 series aluminum. I have yet to use a CCGT (for aluminum) inserts but have used the ArWarner HSS inserts with good results. I was planning to buy a couple of the ArWarner HSS CCMW32.51 and CCMW32.52. Maybe the carbide CCGT are just as good, if so, I'd skip the arwarner ones... but I won't know until I try. All my tooling from my atlas 618 will be sold with it.

Package deals are great, but if you are also buying stuff you'll never use, what's the point. I don't turn enough for the need to squeak out the extra cutting edge. For now I'm focusing on the "C" shape type, though the "T" shape would likely suffice to get me started. Seems like for a BXA QCTP, 1/2", 5/8" shank holders will be what I get most of and likely the #3 size (.375 inscribed circle). I realize every shape, size, coating has it's place but if I can start with fewer options, the better, then add on as I need/want.

Bare bones I just need to start with a right hand turning tool, chamfering tool (SCMCN10-3B), boring bar or two and threading holder. But if these extra offset holders are worth having... might as well buy the kit.

AND... maybe the million dollar question/confusion on my part is what makes CCGT for aluminum and CCMT for steels? The "G" and "T" is the only difference and 3rd position indicates the tolerance of the insert... what does the tolerance of the insert have anything do to with what type of material you are turning? Is it just the way it is?

 

[benmychree]

In other inserts, G means ground finish rather than pressed only, it gives a sharper cutting edge, not sure if it means the same with your inserts; I use mostly triangular positive rake inserts, some ground all over such as TPG (ground) 300 and 400 series, but also TPU (utility), sometimes TIN coated, sometimes not; about 20 years ago, I bought a lot of inserts and other tooling stuff, literally the better part of a thousand pieces, I'm still using them, although at a much slower rate than when I was in business.

 

[skcncx]

In other inserts, G means ground finish rather than pressed only, it gives a sharper cutting edge, not sure if it means the same with your inserts;

That would make sense then. Ground gives tighter tolerance and smoother surface finish. For aluminum I surmise you need the extra sharp and non sticky surface of the ground inserts. Helps prevent chips from welding onto the cutter.

There's virtual no chip breaking on the triangle arwarner hss inserts on aluminum... I'll be curious of the CCGT's do better.

I use mostly triangular positive rake inserts, some ground all over such as TPG (ground) 300 and 400 series, but also TPU (utility), sometimes TIN coated, sometimes not;

Interesting. I have wondered if I should start with the triangular holders. I don't have a sense of what the pros and cons of each. It appears "C" you can turn and face with the same insert and same position on the tool holder.

I started with the "C" shape just because PM offered them. They seem to be the most common ones (as is triangle) to source from shars, accusize, amazon, arwarner, cdco, etc...

I do know Arwarner has both T and C shaped HSS indexable inserts.

 

[benmychree]

Many years ago I looked at HSS inserts, and found that they cost more than carbide; I think that they were mostly used in multiple tool setups where there were carbide tools working at optimum speeds on large diameters and the HSS tools working on smaller diameters at optimum speeds for them where carbide would not do so well at low speeds.

 

[MrWhoopee]

Save yourself some money, use it to buy a pack of each insert and some beer.

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I've bought a LOT of this type of tooling, and am still buying more. It's all good quality.
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edit: Now we're talking

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800025838396.html

 

[ddickey]

Top one is useful for face cuts. The one below with a positive lead angle would be good for removing a lot of material but chatter could be an issue. Not worth it imo.

 

[Ischgl99]

I have a few AR Warner toolholders, the HSS inserts work well, but I switched to carbide for most uses since I can find inserts far cheaper then the AR Warner HSS inserts. The advantage of the HSS inserts is our lathes can’t spin fast enough to best utilize carbide, but even well below optimum speed, the carbide inserts still work well, so to me it comes down to what is the most cost effective. You can find toolholders much cheaper than the AR Warner ones too, so don’t need to buy theirs. I do use their threading toolholder and inserts. Since I am threading fairly slow to begin with, I like using HSS for that. The on edge style inserts are available for grooving as well, so just pop out the threading insert and install a grooving one and off you go.

Over the years I have collected a variety of insert shapes, I don’t see much of a difference between the T and C style positive rake inserts. I use both interchangeably and will buy what I need based on best price at the time. I also have a TPU toolholder, but don’t use that as often, but it works fine as well, and the inserts are cheap.

I don’t buy inserts from China, they may be fine, and you can usually get them really cheap, but I prefer buying from sources that are more likely genuine. I have some Kennemetal inserts that work well. They come in packs of 5 instead of 10 like most other manufacturers, so you can get good quality at a lower up front cost. A place I have been ordering from lately is www.latheinserts.com. The owner used to work for I believe for Kennemetal and sells good quality stuff, but much of it it is not branded.

 

[skcncx]

You can find toolholders much cheaper than the AR Warner ones too, so don’t need to buy theirs

Is there a meaningful quality difference in the tool holders across the board? I noticed the arwarner ones are more $ but caught a review indicating they are high quality. On the surface, it doesn't seem like the meaningful difference between the worse and the best could be that big of a gap.

I imagine I'll stay in the 300 series sized inserts, does it really matter if I get 1/2 or 5/8 toolholders? I purchased a few extra of PM's BXA XL tool holders for 3/4" tools... not because I plan to get 3/4 tool holders but I read that the 5/8 had to be lower all the way down on the PM-1236T BXA tool post, leaving less room for any further adjustment. That would not likely be an issue with 1/2", since it's top is already 1/8" lower than the 5/8... I guess 5/8 is more rigid.

A place I have been ordering from lately is www.latheinserts.com

I'll have to check out that site.

I guess much of this comes with experience but deciphering quality vs don't waste your time junk stuff and knowing where you can save is challenging. I have already gotten the impression you shouldn't buy tooling stuff on amazon as some of it's fraud, name brand boxes with look a like inserts... that seems crazy.

 

[Aurelius]

I would recommend grabbing a copy of David Best's book Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide.
It's a really great reference and saved me hours of trying to decipher inserts.
As far as using the unused corners on the insert, it would seem to make sense if that is the type of insert you are going to get. I work almost exclusively in plastics and was advised to just go with a diamond insert since they last basically forever despite being a bit pricier up front. IF you search around the diamond can be had for about the same price as a 10-pack of carbide so we'll see but so far I Am liking the finish I get. Just something else to consider.

 

[Ischgl99]

Is there a meaningful quality difference in the tool holders across the board? I noticed the arwarner ones are more $ but caught a review indicating they are high quality. On the surface, it doesn't seem like the meaningful difference between the worse and the best could be that big of a gap.

I imagine I'll stay in the 300 series sized inserts, does it really matter if I get 1/2 or 5/8 toolholders? I purchased a few extra of PM's BXA XL tool holders for 3/4" tools... not because I plan to get 3/4 tool holders but I read that the 5/8 had to be lower all the way down on the PM-1236T BXA tool post, leaving less room for any further adjustment. That would not likely be an issue with 1/2", since it's top is already 1/8" lower than the 5/8... I guess 5/8 is more rigid.


I'll have to check out that site.

I guess much of this comes with experience but deciphering quality vs don't waste your time junk stuff and knowing where you can save is challenging. I have already gotten the impression you shouldn't buy tooling stuff on amazon as some of it's fraud, name brand boxes with look a like inserts... that seems crazy.

The AR Warner toolholders are good quality, but I don't think they are any different then any other name brand. They do offer things that are not available elsewhere, the threading toolholder I have has one side external threading and the other side internal, so that helps save the cost on an additional tool. I have TMX, Iscar, Hertel and AR Warner and really don't see any difference between any of them. A professional shop might notice a difference, but I haven't seen anything to push me to one brand or the other, so I base it on price.

I have an AXA toolpost and can only use up to 1/2" tooling, so can't answer if 5/8" tooling will offer any benefits, but I'm mostly using the 21.xx sized inserts on 3/8" holders since I had them from my smaller lathe and there does not seem to be a noticeable difference between my 3/8 and 1/2 toolholders, but the inserts are different types as well, so I haven't done any comparison that is valid to come to a conclusion one way or the other. When I buy new toolholders, I am buying 1/2" size though since it won’t be less rigid then 3/8", it just might not be enough of a difference to notice on this size lathe. You will probably have a variety of sizes of toolholders over time anyways, if you do a lot of heavy roughing, or turn prehardened materials, you might have a 5/8”, for something that requires tight clearances, you might need some 3/8” size holders. I wouldn’t get too carried away about planning everything out and start with something and then add to that as you need it. I’m not a fan of buying sets of things since I usually only end up using a couple of the items and could have spent that money on other things I did need.

I avoid Amazon for just about everything. I have had too many experiences of getting used returns sent to me as new products with my photography equipment, and I really don't like their website for searching for what I want, I get too many results that have nothing to do with my search. To their credit, any time I had an issue they were quick to correct it. If it isn’t sold from Amazon, then I would not trust it is genuine, and even then I am not convinced Amazon vets all of their vendors properly. I stick with the industrial distributors and sometimes Ebay if it looks like a legitimate listing.