833TV Quality Issues?

[wrmiller]

I've recently seen two 833TVs on Ebay listed as auctions because of out-of-spec tolerance issues. Is the quality of Taiwan machines suffering in this crappy global market now?

When I bought my 933TS I did minimal tests to verify that the DRO I installed was displaying accurately, and trammed the head, but that's about it. Very accurate machine that made very accurate parts.

But, I no longer have it and am trying to get a machine early next year to replace my PM25/Weiss that a friend sorta 'misused' for a few years and gave back to me. But now I'm wondering about the quality of the machines that PM sells. I suspect that they don't uncrate and verify the accuracy of the axis travels on these machines before sending them to customers as that would be more labor and costs.

My situation has me looking at the PM30 as a cost/size/capability tradeoff, but if somehow I could swing it, I'd like a Taiwan machine for the better quality(?). I can't see myself spending hundreds of dollars to buy precision measuring tools to measure the X/Y/Z travels. Especially after spending significantly more for a machine like a 833TV. I may be overthinking this, but maybe I can do sufficient verification with a matched pair of 2-4-6 blocks in various setups?

 

[dabear3428]

I've recently seen two 833TVs on Ebay listed as auctions because of out-of-spec tolerance issues. Is the quality of Taiwan machines suffering in this crappy global market now?

When I bought my 933TS I did minimal tests to verify that the DRO I installed was displaying accurately, and trammed the head, but that's about it. Very accurate machine that made very accurate parts.

But, I no longer have it and am trying to get a machine early next year to replace my PM25/Weiss that a friend sorta 'misused' for a few years and gave back to me. But now I'm wondering about the quality of the machines that PM sells. I suspect that they don't uncrate and verify the accuracy of the axis travels on these machines before sending them to customers as that would be more labor and costs.

My situation has me looking at the PM30 as a cost/size/capability tradeoff, but if somehow I could swing it, I'd like a Taiwan machine for the better quality(?). I can't see myself spending hundreds of dollars to buy precision measuring tools to measure the X/Y/Z travels. Especially after spending significantly more for a machine like a 833TV. I may be overthinking this, but maybe I can do sufficient verification with a matched pair of 2-4-6 blocks in various setups?

have you looked at the PM940V basic with hardways?

 

[wrmiller]

have you looked at the PM940V basic with hardways?

I have looked at it and consider it an option, thanks. It is very similar to what Charter Oak offered years ago. I had their Chinese-sourced 9x40 with Charter Oak's 3 phase 3hp VFD upgrade. Along with the belt drive and their one-shot oiler kit I had to install myself. Used my little PM25 to modify the saddle for the oiling kit. (there used to be a thread that I posted about it on here somewhere)

Spent about a year modifying it to get it where I wanted it. Serious mill. I don't think the ways were induction hardened though. I'm just not sure I want to go through all that again. And PM doesn't offer a one-shot kit so I'd have to piece one together myself. (pretty sure I don't remember how) I sold it to a friend (who still has it) and bought my PM935TS. While not the serious metal hogger the 9x40 was, I got spoiled by its overall quality, hardened ways, chromed quill, articulating head and knee, and one-shot oiling system. Basically a baby bridgeport clone. Given my current situation, the 935 is no longer an option though.

I still have months before I can do anything, and I'm sure things will change (for better or worse) by then. I am just curious about the recent out-of-spec 833s on Ebay and the possible quality issues coming out of Taiwan.

 

[kb58]

Just curious, did the auction listings actually say that they have "out-of-spec tolerance issues?" Seems too honest to see that stated...

 

[ChazzC]

Just curious, did the auction listings actually say that they have "out-of-spec tolerance issues?" Seems too honest to see that stated...

“SOLD AS IS NEEDS WORK:”

DISCOUNTED PM-833TV BENCH TOP VERTICAL MILL w/STAND! FREE SHIP! NO RESERVE! | eBay

The table is approx. Or use it as is, but the right thing to do would be to fix is so its right. It includes 3 axis Magnetic MA-100M DRO Installed, plus the stand. PM-833TV VERTICAL BENCH TYPE ULTRA PRECISION MILLING MACHINE.

www.ebay.com

 

[compact8]

This is not the first report I have seen on the quality issue of PM. The other one that I have seen is about PM 728 VT but that one was just about the need to tram the column which is OK for me. This one is about the perpendicularlity of X and Y, the fixing is totally outside my capability. will think again about the plan to get a 728 VT .......

 

[wrmiller]

This is not the first report I have seen on the quality issue of PM. The other one that I have seen is about PM 728 VT but that one was just about the need to tram the column which is OK for me. This one is about the perpendicularlity of X and Y, the fixing is totally outside my capability. will think again about the plan to get a 728 VT .......

I also can't fix the misalignment of the ways on a saddle. I don't have the tools nor the knowledge. Which is why I am/was looking at Taiwan machines, which is supposed to be the next level up quality wise. I was looking at that 833TV on Ebay that needed work, and couldn't begin to think of how I might be able to fix that. FYI, the 'out of spec' machines are no longer on Ebay. So either somebody who can fix them bought them, or the listings expired/were pulled.

Anyway, it's likely going to be next year before I can consider a replacement for my Weiss/PM25 bench mill. Looking at the manual and pics/drawings of the new PM25, it is leagues beyond my old mill and I may just get that and hope for the best. We'll see.

I really do mill my old PM935TS, but that's water under the bridge.

 

[qualitymachinetools]

That was why it was sold discounted as is, described exactly as it is so the buyer knew what they were getting, it didnt meet the specs and that was not hidden at all.

I did not personally check this one, so who knows, but they are selling off inventory thats been sitting around now that we finally have a little time to breathe. Nobody here had time to scrape it in over the past 2 years so sell to someone who wants to save money and has the time. We ship hundreds of the 833 every year and thousands of the 728. Pretty rare that we have issues.

But neither are going to be the 935, different type of machine, and they are also a whole lot less money.

 

[qualitymachinetools]

I've recently seen two 833TVs on Ebay listed as auctions because of out-of-spec tolerance issues. Is the quality of Taiwan machines suffering in this crappy global market now?

When I bought my 933TS I did minimal tests to verify that the DRO I installed was displaying accurately, and trammed the head, but that's about it. Very accurate machine that made very accurate parts.

But, I no longer have it and am trying to get a machine early next year to replace my PM25/Weiss that a friend sorta 'misused' for a few years and gave back to me. But now I'm wondering about the quality of the machines that PM sells. I suspect that they don't uncrate and verify the accuracy of the axis travels on these machines before sending them to customers as that would be more labor and costs.

My situation has me looking at the PM30 as a cost/size/capability tradeoff, but if somehow I could swing it, I'd like a Taiwan machine for the better quality(?). I can't see myself spending hundreds of dollars to buy precision measuring tools to measure the X/Y/Z travels. Especially after spending significantly more for a machine like a 833TV. I may be overthinking this, but maybe I can do sufficient verification with a matched pair of 2-4-6 blocks in various setups?

And yes you can certainly use 123 blocks or a square, PROVIDED THEY ARE VERIFIED TO BE ACCURATE. Pretty easy to check that way, at least get a good idea.

I've never had so many customers with bad measuring instruments until these past few years though. Now instead of relying on the instrument assuming its correct (Unless of course its a Starrett or Mitutoyo or something good) They really have to check the measuring tools first anymore. Seems to be the Amazon/Vevor Special kind of thing. We took a machine back that was supposedly off .007 over the travels. Came back here, it was dead on. Checked by 2 qualified people here before shipping the new mill, same issue at the customers place. Ended up being a granite square the customer had that was way out. I always question a metal square, but never saw granite out that much. We all learned our lesson there.

I love this business and love our customers, but sometimes it is very tiring. No question about it.

 

[wrmiller]

And yes you can certainly use 123 blocks or a square, PROVIDED THEY ARE VERIFIED TO BE ACCURATE. Pretty easy to check that way, at least get a good idea.

I've never had so many customers with bad measuring instruments until these past few years though. Now instead of relying on the instrument assuming its correct (Unless of course its a Starrett or Mitutoyo or something good) They really have to check the measuring tools first anymore. Seems to be the Amazon/Vevor Special kind of thing. We took a machine back that was supposedly off .007 over the travels. Came back here, it was dead on. Checked by 2 qualified people here before shipping the new mill, same issue at the customers place. Ended up being a granite square the customer had that was way out. I always question a metal square, but never saw granite out that much. We all learned our lesson there.

I love this business and love our customers, but sometimes it is very tiring. No question about it.

I procure metrology tools and gauges based on the accuracy requirements of their intended purpose. The more accurate the desired measurement, the higher quality of the tool purchased. Some measurements I take have acceptable tolerances of +/- 10 thou.. Other things I measure require a +/- of a thou or less. Quality metrology tools/gauges have always cost more, and I'm OK with that.