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Von Wyck 4.5 Morse Taper Spindle Taper Problems

kdecelles

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#1
Greetings,

I have a 16" Von Wyck lathe circa 1903-1908 that I'm having some issues re: the spindle taper. Based on measurements I took, this was the oddball 4.5MT (1.5" outer diameter).

After much research/google I identified that Grizzly sells a 4.5 MT to 3MT adapter--great!. I purchased a couple of these (why buy just one when you are already paying shipping to Canada) so this is where I have the issue. The adapter doesn't seat smoothly in the spindle with hand pressure, and with slight tapping with a rubber mallet it seems to fit snuggly until you put the 3MT center in it and fire it up. The center has a very pronounced wobble to it.

I blued the adapter, seated it and there is some contact but not what you'd expect to see.

Upon visual inspection, the spindle bore has some wear (scratches etc.), but not unexpected for 110 years old, but no obvious 'nicks' or spurs.

It took a week to find references to a 4.5 MT adapter let alone a 4.5MT reamer (non existent from what I'm seeing).

What are a guys options here?

Is there a possibility that this is not 4.5MT (tailstock is 3MT -- no question)
 

Bob Korves

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#2
The 4 1/2 Morse taper is not a true Morse taper, it was developed to fit certain lathes where the #4 and #5 were not appropriate and it would fit 5C collets in those spindles. The 4 1/2 does not show in Morse company references. I do not know the whole history of this, but I think your lathe is too old to have a 4 1/2 Morse taper unless it was added later on. The Morse taper was invented in 1860, but there was no 4-1/2. I suppose your options are to measure it and make a taper to fit it, or cut it to a 4-1/2 if that will fit in the spindle metal as it exists.
 

kdecelles

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#3
I found references to the 4.5 in machinery handbook and on one other site . Ive reached out to member "Dutch" as he had a Von wyck and ran a 5mt stub on it


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mark_f

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#4
Why not get a 5MT Reamer and ream it to 5MT? You can get a roughing and finish set on eBay reasonable. Just remember they are HAND reamers.
 

Silverbullet

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#5
No matter what it is you need it to work , I'd get the reamers and recut it . If need be an adapter could be put in and pinned or screwed into the side to hold a four morse or three morse.
 

British Steel

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#6
According to my Olde copy of Machinery's, it's not a Morse, it's an American Standard 4.5 taper - also found in the spindle noses of some English lathes, e.g. Holbrook, Harrison and the small Dean Smith & Grace toolroom lathes. Rare. Expensive.

Dave H. (the other one)
 

kdecelles

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#7
If I look to reaming, how concerned should I be on how much "meat" is left ? Could this thin out the spindle too much (I know, hard to answer without pictures/measurements etc) but philosophically


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kdecelles

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#8
Looking at reamers now..... any estimate on time / effort / approach? Would u fix reamer in taillstock and turn spindle by hand, or other?

Absolutely understand hand vs power reaming, just thinking alignment

Would a boring bar be an option ( on angle of course?)


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4gsr

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#9
There's also a good chance that taper is a Jarno taper. Jarno taper is .600" taper per foot. They were common taper found on early lathes in their days, too.

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kdecelles

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#10
Would it have been common to "mix" tApers on a machine? Ie jarno on spindle and mt 3 on tail? I'm


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kdecelles

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#11
I heard from Dutch who says his old Von wyck had a. 5mt stub taper

The 1.5 inch end measurement of the spindle could be the large end of 4.5mt or a 12 jarno, or the smaller end of a 5mt

I need advice on the best way to measure the inside of the spindle. I don't think I am doing this accurately enough




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RandyWilson

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#12
A while back I ebay'd an assorted lot of spindle adapters in the hopes of whittling one down for the proprietary South Bend spindle. If you can get me some accurate measurements, I'll see if I have anything that fits.
 

4gsr

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#13
Would it have been common to "mix" tApers on a machine? Ie jarno on spindle and mt 3 on tail? I'm


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It's possible. It's also possible someone has altered the tailstock taper to a morse taper.
A number of early built lathes had Jarno tapers instead of MT's. Morse tapers were primarly for drills and drilling machines. Brown and Sharpe tapers were used on milling machines, and Jarno taper were used on a few lathes. Not always the case, but started that way. Jarno tapers were also common on early cylindrical grinders, too. The Morse tapers pretty much obsoleted the Jarno taper going into the 20th century.

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benmychree

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#14
It's possible. It's also possible someone has altered the tailstock taper to a morse taper.
A number of early built lathes had Jarno tapers instead of MT's. Morse tapers were primarly for drills and drilling machines. Brown and Sharpe tapers were used on milling machines, and Jarno taper were used on a few lathes. Not always the case, but started that way. Jarno tapers were also common on early cylindrical grinders, too. The Morse tapers pretty much obsoleted the Jarno taper going into the 20th century.

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I had a Norton universal cylindrical grinder from the late 1960s, and it still used the Jarno taper on the head and tailstocks; I think most all grinders used it and likely still do. I think it is a good thing to prevent the unwashed from putting things into the tapers that do not belong there, negatively effecting the accuracy of the tapers.[/QUOTE]
 
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Bob Korves

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#15
I heard from Dutch who says his old Von wyck had a. 5mt stub taper

The 1.5 inch end measurement of the spindle could be the large end of 4.5mt or a 12 jarno, or the smaller end of a 5mt

I need advice on the best way to measure the inside of the spindle. I don't think I am doing this accurately enough




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I think the first thing to do is to get an accurate measurement of the existing taper. Accurate. You will never be able to identify, re-cut, or repair your spindle taper if you cannot measure it accurately before, during, and after reworking it. Making and repairing good tapers in lathe spindles is not an easy job, even cleaning one up with a reamer can establish a taper that is not concentric with the lathe center line.
 

kdecelles

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#16
Suggestions on measuring technique? Trick is to know exact where you took the two measurement . Gage ball technique seems easiest and most accurate but need to find balls larger than 1 inch


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Bob Korves

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#17
Use a magnetic back indicator on your bed ways, touching the carriage. Make sure the indicator stem is parallel with the ways. Mount a DTI to your tool post. Set the carriage reading indicator to an even number. Adjust the DTI to zero. Move the indicator out of the spindle a small amount, then move it back inward, and zero again with the backlash out. Move the carriage one inch into the taper. Read and record the DTI again. The travel of the indicator in one inch is half of the taper per inch of the taper. Compare with published charts for different tapers until you have a match.
 

kdecelles

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#18
I will give that a go, I appreciate the instructions


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f350ca

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#19
If the DTI is not perfectly on the centre line of the spindle your readings will be out.

Greg
 

projectnut

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#20
I'm not sure how common mixing tapers was, but it certainly was an available option on some machines. I have the same era Seneca Falls Star #20 lathe. It could have been ordered from the factory with either Jarno or Morse tapers, or any combination of both. Mine has Morse on both the head and tailstock. I do know of several others that have Morse on the headstock and Jarno on the tailstock
 
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