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Vehicle circulation water pump housing built, need advice.

GoceKU

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#1
I need to build a calculation pump on 12v for a webasto heating system, for longevity reason i've chosen to use an proper water pump from an car but i can't use the housing because is part of the engine block, therefore i'll like some advice if someone has built or has some experience with this style of water pumps?
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Groundhog

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#2
Never made a water pump, mostly just bored and thought I'd type something ...,
At this point it probably would be better to be looking at the pump part engine block (because that is the part you are trying to reproduce).
I would make as many measurements as possible, of course paying particular attention diameter & depth of pump cavity - (is it round?), o-ring and stud positions, any "swirls" in the bottom, etc. But don't overlook to inlet and outlet designs and positions as well as length and diameter of immediate straight sections of inlet and outlet paths.
It will probably work pretty good without being an exact copy of the engine block, but the closer the better! I believe (unlike many others) that most times that the engineering the professionals produce is probably a good balance between longevity, function and cost. You might make it work a little better, but you have a lot better chance of screwing it up!
 

cascao

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#3
Maybe a motorcycle one will be easyer to use since it is only part of right cover not entire engine.
 

RandyWilson

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#4
Experience in how the operate, yes. That particular pump will require machining the coned wall that matches the impeller taper. I would suggest looking for a complete self-contained pump such as what Ford used on some of their quad-cam V6s, or at least a catridge pump like the BMW M44 (98 318i for example)
 

T Bredehoft

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#6
A pump I'm familiar with required that the end clearance (between the end of the vanes and the back of the cavity) be as little as possible. Part prints indicated that max was .015, .005 would be much better, but we (the owners of survivors built 60 to 70 years ago) determined that manufacturing specs couldn't be held that closely. We found that rebuilt pumps were assembled to have nearer 1/16 clearance, and didn't really cool the engine. We soon learned how to adjust the vanes on the shaft (heat and pull with a bearing puller, try for fit, do again, etc.) Certainly there are other constraints, too. If I had an old Studebaker water pump I'd send it to you. They are independent of the block.
 

GoceKU

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#7
I went looking for a more suitable pump ether an complete or smaller but only thing i found is an old washing machine pump which i have no intention of using that left me to continue with the one i've got, first i centered clamped and welded the coupler to the pulley then i cut of the pulley to remove as much rotating mass as i can, i also cut down the mounting flange to make it smaller, i'll update this thread as i make progress, maybe someone will need to make one and this will help.
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greatbasinind

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#8
We have used older Chevrolet pumps and drove them using a belt. Make plates suitable to go where it bolts to the block. Also the pump needs equal or positive pressure.
 

grumpygator

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#10
2004-2009 Toyota Prius 12 volt water pump on E-bay about $56.00
Or go to the scrap yard and pull one out for about $20.00
**G**
 

GoceKU

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#12
I started on the pump housing, one of the more difficult thing was drilling this sideways hole, the plan is to have weld on the side port and to make the entry port bolt in with an o ring, i need to buy a bigger drill to enlarge the side port, more to come.
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fixit

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#13
The inlet should be toward the center of the impeller the outlet on the circumference. This type of pump is not positive displacement it only increases the speed of the medium (water, air, oil, etc) to develop pressure at the outlet. Look at a auto motor, washing machine or boat motor pump the liquid enters at or near the center of the impeller & exits at the circumference.

fixit
 

GoceKU

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#14
The pump i'm using is from an car engine, peticualy peugeot TU3 engine, and the housing is design like you've described it, and i plan to copy it, in steel, i want to experiment with aluminium casting, so i may try casting a blank and try machining it later.
 

tq60

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#15
It sounds like you are creating or repairing a heating system for an rv.

There are common parts off the shelf for this but likely expensive.

Other options could be to look for and use or modify a pump from household heating system that uses piped water for heat.

HP of motor is usually small so inverter would allow simple and clean installation as the unit is designed for continuous duty over long service life and should be easy to find and or order.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 

GoceKU

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#16
tq60, is for webasto heating system, it uses diesel fuel and very little electricity to heat up the engine and entire coolant system on diesel vehicles, and this pump will be a permanent part of the cooling system which means all day when the car is running is at 90 degree centigrade, and i don't want to have overheating issues because of failure at the pump, if i use an household pump and inverter it will drain my battery, so no matter how hot the engine is ill want be able to turn it over.
 

tq60

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#17
In the us those are common on high end motor homes so parts are readily available.

But cost $$$ because they can.

Using an inverter will not be battery issue but the motor will.

Current inverters have very low overhead meaning watts out to the load is almost same as watts in from battery.

Difference of small percent.

So you can make a device that takes up lots of space and due to "home engineering" will likely be less efficient than a purpose designed unit or you could buy the specific designed part for RV for easy plug and play or you could look at home use devices.

One could add a specific function battery as well as properly sizing the inverter as the motor size would be small.

For this application forget about power losses as whatever is used will eat the capacity of the battery.

Look for a "system" that pumps the required amount of water that will handle the operating conditions that uses the least amount of energy at whatever supply voltage is available then build the power supply.

This is very old school stuff.

Look at irv2.com which is a site for rv folks and you can search there for additional information for your system as they are common items.

Last place to look would be rv salvage.

Read above again...

When engine is running the engine pump should handle flow so overheat should not be issue.

And alternator operating so no reasonable limit related to power consumption.

Only concern is when parked and that can be solved by simple and proper design.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
Ko
 

GoceKU

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#18
tq60, i appreciate all the advices, i'm in macedonia here we do not have RVs at all, the webasto heater is used on cold mornings to preheat the engine and insides, and if the weather is too cold, it allows you to have heating without running the engine, here is a link, this is not my video, but shows the same unit i have, but i'm missing the circulation pump:
as for the car battery is only 66 ah from which the glow plugs and starter motor need all of them to overcome the 23,5 bar per cylinder compression.
 

tq60

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#19
You will need additional battery for the pump system.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 

GoceKU

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#20
Winter is coming so i need to make this pump and install this unit in my car, so after braking the 4th drill bit i decided that isn't going to work, looked around for a big enough piece of aluminium but could not find, so decided i'll try melting and pouring my own piece, made a mold from steel and try to melt down in my makeshift furnace without any success switched around couple of burners it will not melt, then i put the pot on a propane stove and used my mapp gas torch it will melt down the pieces but will not stay liquid, then i put the pot in my home heating furnace fill it up with coal but couldn't get it hot enough without boiling the water in the system so i gave up, and started to look around the shop for a piece that i can make it work i found this old wheel stub axle from some heavy equipment and started to machine it, it seems to be a soft material and cuts pretty nice i first finished the back side for the pump complete with the inlet port, then i turned around and made one clean up pass to get rid of the rust, then parted off the excess and face it, today i ran out of time, tomorrow i'll drill the inside and bore it out to final size then i need to drill and weld the side port.
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brino

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#21
@GoceKU

I have had great luck melting aluminum with a propane powered burner I built like this:
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html
a simple design and full plans at that site.

My melting pot is an old tractor piston sleeve with a plate welded on the bottom.
My "furnace" is a pile of fire bricks that I set up as required and tear down when cool.

-brino
 

GoceKU

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#22
I'll do some more experimenting till i managed to make castings to machine on my machines whenever i have some free time.
 

GoceKU

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#23
Today i continue with this housing, first i center drill it and drill it with 16,8 mm all the way thru then i drill it 41,5 mm deep with 30 mm drill bit then i started with the boring bar i use an indicator and stopped every cat 0,4 mm short of the previous this way i made the taper to follow the taper on the pump impeller then i cut the groove for the seal to seal, then i made a nipple for the outlet side next i need to weld and drill the port, more to come.
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GoceKU

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#24
Today i continued with working on this housing, just as i weld the outlet nipple got a call about a guy selling an webasto unit with the pump i'm needing, so i went and bought the complete unit and when i tested the pump is not working, try taking it apart and find that is sealed induction motor with burn electrics and coils, second thought was i'll replace the motor only but as is an induction motor there is no seals i can't use it at all, back to the original pump build and i had a hell of a time drilling it at an angle, you can see my setup for holding my taper drill bit with an old drill press spindle and a hand drill, as last thing i painted it in primer to stop it rusting but the paint gun had some old paint and paint looks ugly but should protect it from rusting.
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GoceKU

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#25
Today i assemble the pump and tried to test it and the motor was struggling as soon as the pump primed the rpm dropped in half and the motor got over 100 degree celsius in less then 10 min, and the power counsopson went to 8 amps, so new plan is to make it belt driven and gear down to gain torque and lower the rpm, more to come.
 

GoceKU

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#26
Today i assemble the pump and tried to test it and the motor was struggling as soon as the pump primed the rpm dropped in half and the motor got over 100 degree celsius in less then 10 min, and the power counsopson went to 8 amps, so new plan is to make it belt driven and gear down to gain torque and lower the rpm, more to come.
 

GoceKU

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#27
Today i've spent some time reworking my previous coupling, first i chunk up the water pump in the lathe, i put the jaws on the flange that not sealing, and the 3 fins are contacting the jaws so i took it easy, made light cuts to make it round, then used a very sharp HSS tool to cut off the old coupling and make the belts groves, then i made a pulley for the motor and used couple of small screws to secure it as last i vent in the big garage and put couple of tack welds to hold them to a piece of pipe, and test it it now the motor doesn't getting that hot, and draws its normal 4,9 amps but is very loud, sound like a small kompressor, i've noticed the motor shaft has some runout and makes the whole assembely to vibrate, i'm very busy next couple of days but i'll try at list to get the heating unit install in the car and do some more testing before i install the pump it in my car, more to come.
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GoceKU

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#28
I'll have to go to work on the weekend so my plan to dedicate my time to finish this and couple other projects is not going to happen, but i still have an hour or two to spare at the end of each day, so today i started to install the heating unit, first looked around and try to place it in the engine bay where there is room, and only place i found is where this plastic box was sitting that use to house the engine ecu, so i removed it, its an mechanical diesel no ecu needed, and started to make the brackets, the first one i made is not visible but i used 40mm flat iron and band it and put couple of holes to bolt up, for the second i had an bracket for mercedes b class so i cut it in half and weld 25mm flat bar to attach in nearby ground bolt hole, then i used an 90 degree elbow for the exhaust from another unit to redirect the exhaust, which i still need to finish running to the bottom of the car and install a silencer, then i cut back the air filter assembly and fitted it to the unit so that part is finished, then i made a new bracket for the fuel pump and found perfectly located bolt hole in the radiator support and bolted it, lastly i removed the entire unit painted the brackets and put it back together in the car, i still have lots of things to connect and install to make this project finished.
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GoceKU

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#29
A lot has happened with this project last couple of weeks, i realized, i can't use the pump i've built, because of the power consumption it will drain my battery in no time, so after looking for some time, i bought two more webasto units and one had an working circulation pump, so i started with mounting that pump, and began the plumbing, i used many coolant hoses and aluminium pipes to make the connections for the coolant system, and used heat resistant insulation, then i plumed in the fuel filter via the bleeder screw, used a small banjo bolt and install inline diesel fuel filter, then i used stainless flex pipe and made the exhaust, and after i installed and tested it i realised that there just is not enough space, the unit itself produces a lot of heat and it will melt my headlight and core support,radiator, intercooler, so at the end i dismounted the unit all together and returned the engine bay to stock, i know if i keep it in the car i'll try to insolation it and end up burning down the car, next i'll like to look in to maybe installing a block heater if there is room .
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