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Thin wall MT3 to MT2 adapter?

Alan H

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#1
Is there such an animal as a thin wall MT3 to MT2 adapter? The Sioux adapter I have in my kit has a wall thicknesses of about 0.135". The adapter projects beyond the face of the tail stock socket about 7/8" when in place.

I was wondering if there's an adapter with a thinner wall that would take some of that projection away? Of course that means that the geometry of the back end of the adapter would need to be a bit different as well. I am thinking this is all feasible and wondering if someone makes it.
 

RandyM

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#2
I think it is time you make one. :encourage:

I would not think that something like that would exist commercially. Although, I have been known to be wrong countless times before.
 

mksj

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#3
They indicate the Z-Live sleeve measures 2.5" so is shorter than the taper section on a MT3. So should work as opposed to the adapter sleeves with a tang.
Outside Morse Taper 3.
Inside Morse taper 2.
Made of high quality alloy steel hardened and ground throughout.
Overall Length: 2-1/2".
Run out: 0.0001"

http://zlivecenter.com/02010MT32
mt3 to mt2.jpg
 

Alan H

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#4
Thanks Mark, I had seen the sleeves but was uncertain as their wall thickness. I called Z Live Center and asked and they say it will project less than the tang end adapter. I must say there was a bit of a language barrier and I am not sure I was able to explain it well enough and felt I may have lead them to the answer I was after.

It's worth ordering one and seeing how it works. The length should definitely help on hang out compared to an adapter with a tang. The adapter with a tang gets expelled from the tail stock at about the 7/8" projection mark. The sleeve will help preclude that at least. It may still hang out a bit but at least it will eliminate the earlier touch down with the tang adapter.

EDIT: Have one coming now..
 
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RandyM

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#5
They indicate the Z-Live sleeve measures 2.5" so is shorter than the taper section on a MT3. So should work as opposed to the adapter sleeves with a tang.
Outside Morse Taper 3.
Inside Morse taper 2.
Made of high quality alloy steel hardened and ground throughout.
Overall Length: 2-1/2".
Run out: 0.0001"

http://zlivecenter.com/02010MT32
So this one is a thinner sleeve than standard?
 

Alan H

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#6
Randy, I doubt the actual wall thickness is any thinner. The gent at ZLC said it was but like I said I think there was a big language barrier in the way.

What it will likely accomplish however is allowing you to keep the tailstock retracted deeper into the housing since there's no tang.

I should have it on Friday (EDIT: Monday) and we'll get a confirmation one way or the other. I will post some photos of the two different adapters in the tailstock.

Meanwhile I should seize the opportunity to buy a toolpost grinder so I can grind it down shouldn't I??
 
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darkzero

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#8
Thanks Mark, I had seen the sleeves but was uncertain as their wall thickness. I called Z Live Center and asked and they say it will project less than the tang end adapter. I must say there was a bit of a language barrier and I am not sure I was able to explain it well enough and felt I may have lead them to the answer I was after.

It's worth ordering one and seeing how it works. The length should definitely help on hang out compared to an adapter with a tang. The adapter with a tang gets expelled from the tail stock at about the 7/8" projection mark. The sleeve will help preclude that at least. It may still hang out a bit but at least it will eliminate the earlier touch down with the tang adapter.

EDIT: Have one coming now..
The type of sleeve that Mark posted a pic of from ZLC is not any thinner, it's shorter, much shorter than a standard sleeve. The center you put in it might be longer than the sleeve. They project less cause those sleeves are the type that are used in the headstock spindle. I have one of thise in a MT5-MT3 from ZLC, the one that came with my lathe wasn't that great.

I wouldn't use of those in the tailstock. Because it has no tang, when you try to eject it with the tailstock handwheel, you risk ejecting the center out of that sleeve & you'll have to figure out a way to eject that sleeve. If you have a slot in your tailstock quill for a drift, that still may not work as these sleeves are shorter.
 

darkzero

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#9
What it will likely accomplish however is allowing you to keep the tailstock retracted deeper into the housing since there's no tang.
If that's all you want you can simply cut the tang off. That's what I did for my drill chucks that I use on my lathe to get the full travel of the quill. On my live centers that I use sleeves on I don't really care cause most of the time I have to extend the quill to use them but I cut the tangs off anyway (still need to do one more). My tailstock does not have the slot for the tangs so it doesn't matter to me.


20171109_140231.jpg
 

Alan H

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#10
Thanks Will. I don't doubt at all that it is not thinner. We will find out 'cause it has been ordered and will be here in a few days.

I will carefully check out the dimensions and issues you point out before jamming that baby in there too tight.
 

darkzero

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#11
Thanks Will. I don't doubt at all that it is not thinner. We will find out 'cause it has been ordered and will be here in a few days.

I will carefully check out the dimensions and issues you point out before jamming that baby in there too tight.
No problem, but yeah you definitely don't want that sleeve stuck in your tail stock.

Here's some pics. These are both MT5-MT3 but you'll get the basic idea in size comparison between a spindle sleeve & regular sleeve (I only have the regular MT5 sleeve cause that's what ZLC originally sent me, they told me to just keep it). And as you can see, if you used this setup up as is, there's a big risk of ejecting the center out of the sleeve rather than both unless you are able to seat the center in the sleeve very tight & hope.



20171109_142347.jpg

20171109_142434.jpg
 

NortonDommi

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#12
Use open end,(drawbar),arbors and sleeves. Use a button head screw in the end so the arbor will knock out. If useing a MT2 arbor in a MT3 sleeve fit sleeve and screw through into the MT2 arbor this will make sure they come out together and it is easier to seperate them on the bench.
The only Tanged arbors I have are fitted with drill chucks but the lathe drill chuck has an open end arbor with a screw in it. Never had a problem with slip but I keep my tapers plugged if nothing is in them, Clean before anything goes in and I seat with a light tap with block of wood if not using a drawbar.
Here's some dimentions but they are in metrickery.
 

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Alan H

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#13
Okay, I received the Mt3/2 sleeve and it provided the basis of the solution I was after although it required a little modification by the addition of an extender. My new Royal Products Quad Bearing live center with MT2 is now fitted very well to my PM1340GT lathe.

The Z Live Center sleeve does have a thinner wall than my Sioux MT3/2 adapter. This benefit added to the other big advantage of the sleeve being much shorter than a tanged adapter yields a very good outcome.

I added an extender to the sleeve so that the assembly could be expelled by the tailstock quill adjuster screw as is normal. Without the extender, the sleeve on the live center would not be removed by backing the quill into the tailstock housing. The sleeve was about ~ 1/2" too short to engage with the screw to be pushed out of the socket. The extender I made solved that problem and this modified sleeve gives me what I was looking for. It is much shorter than a MT3 to 2 adapter with tang, has a thinner wall, and has almost no cantilever out the tailstock quill socket.

Here is the sleeve compared to the tanged adapter (the extender I made is shown here as well):
sleeve and extender.jpg

Here is the extender laying on the sketch I made for it. The dimensions specifically fit a PM1340GT tailstock, a Z Live Center sleeve and a Royal Quad Bearing live center.

the answer.jpg

The Royal, the sleeve and the extender ready to assemble:

sleeve and extender ready to go.jpg

Here's the Royal Live Center with the modified/extended ZLC sleeve on it:

center with adpater sleeve in place.jpg

Here's the projection of the Royal using a tanged MT3/2 adapter. The center is retracted to the point where the quill screw begins to expel the center. Notice how much cantilever there is even with the center pulled back as far as it will go. The wall thickness of the tanged adapter adds cantilever as well as the tanged end. This projection and cantilever is what I wanted to avoid:

MT3 2 adapter and center in quill.jpg

Here's the Royal with the modified sleeve. Notice that it will retract all the way to the zero mark before it is expelled and there's no excessive cantilever. Both of these are the benefits I was after. The wall thickness and length are the ticket!

center with sleeve in quill.jpg

I have attached the drawing of the extender just in case it might help someone down the road. Keep in mind these dimensions are for a Royal Quad MT2 live center mounted in the the tailstock of a PM1340GT lathe. Please be sure to confirm the dimensions that would work for your machine and center.
 

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Alan H

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#14
I also meant to share the wall thicknesses of the two different adapters above.

The wall thickness on the MT3/2 tanged adapter (Made by Sioux) is 0.1355". The wall thickness on the MT3/2 sleeve by ZLC is 0.1255". So to my surprise the sleeve was significantly thinner which is a definite advantage for my application.

As pointed out by Will, the sleeve's real intended purpose is for use in a head stock. Perhaps that is why they are thinner to minimize projection.
 
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