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spreading the love..from a Mazak

Discussion in 'CNC IN THE HOME SHOP' started by Zamfir, Apr 22, 2017.

  1. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Ok,

    So, I have a Mazak quick turn 20 coming to live in my garage in a couple weeks.

    It weighs around 12000 lbs. Yeah, I did not add a zero by accident.
    The spot in my garage it will sit would cause it to span 4 different slabs and not in a good way.. all on the edges and or corners.

    Making or buying some skates to move it into place. I have a mill and welder.

    Yup, only 4" concrete. So, I am thinking of creative ways of keeping it happy and not break my garage floor all over the place.

    Here are my current thoughts.

    big pieces of 1/2" steel under each foot to spread out the weight.
    or
    I cut 18x18 inch-ish squares in my current floor, dig down about 36" and dig outward at the bottom and pour footers for each foot.

    you see where my head is at.. Any suggestions or experiences here to share?

    Going to be an exciting May here.. lol.


    Thanks!
    Eric
     
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  2. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Vice President Staff Member Administrator

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    Monolithic slab only for foundation. 5 bag mix, plenty of rebar. 12" thick min. 30% larger than footprint. Expansion joints all around.
     
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  3. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I Know ideally that is what I should have. No way it can happen in this timeframe. I wish it could.
     
  4. FOMOGO

    FOMOGO United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    If the substrate is good, I think you will be fine with what you have. The plates certainly won't hurt. Mike
     
  5. Glenn Brooks

    Glenn Brooks H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A 12" square steel plate = 144sq inches. So with 4 plates you will be supporting about 3000 # on each plate for a surface loading of around 22#/square inch. Very light loading. I wouldn't worry at all about the foundation slab at this level of loading. You could probably play with the math and determine that with adjusting pads having around 4 sq inches surface area, perhaps you don't even need the steel plates. (750lb/sq inch loading).

    That's about what the average size pick up loads on your garage floor.

    If you opt for the steel plates, likely 1/4" to 3/8" plate would be more than adequate to support the weight. And a lot cheaper than 1/2".

    Glenn.
     
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  6. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hi Eric,

    This is the milling machine I have in my garage:
    http://hobby-machinist.com/members/brino.28808/
    Cincinnati tells me it's 11,000lbs with the vertical head installed.

    Back when I got it I was worried too. But I did the math (like Glenn shows above).
    Sure it's heavy, but with the size of the base of the machine I determined the load was not unreasonable.
    However, I do NOT have it near an edge or corner of a slab.

    The one suggestion I do have is to forget the machinery skates for this; put it on heavy plates and use pipes or even solid bar rollers under that. That will spread the load better and not punch any holes thru the slab with the skates.

    Yours will be different; yours has feet mine is a solid flat base, but here's what I did....maybe it will give some ideas:

    When it was delivered I had the crane place it on pipes upon a sheet of 3/4" plywood just outside the garage door. I had previous raked up the gravel to make the top of the sheet the same as the floor height. Keep the pull point very low! With that and a come-along and good anchor (my pickup truck on the patio with a chain thru the back door) I was able to pull it into the garage. Slow, methodical and keep moving pipes to the front, don't let the front tip down until it's fully on the slab.

    Once on the slab I slowly pulled without replacing the pipes until the machine base was flat on the slab. Then I wrapped a chain around the base and (again slowly!) spun it exactly into position.

    Note however: I am NOT a mechanical engineer, rigger, machine installer. I'm just saying what worked for me. Use at your own risk.

    What ever you do please be careful!
    (.......and get us a bunch of pictures, too!)

    -brino
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  7. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for the input!

    I was thinking maybe to help out the multiple slab issue, I could get 3 lengths of 6 foot by 8" 1/4 thick steel and lay them from foot to foot along the width. That could spread the load even more and help bridge between slabs?
    Since the machine is 5 foot wide 6 foot would give a nice overlap.

    I never thought I would be getting anything of this size let alone so soon. Shoot, it will sit for a while until I can afford a 20hp phase perfect. All of this was in the plans in a year or so but for the price on a known good working machine from a friend..I just gotta figure out a way to make it work. I will never come close to needing all this thing could give nor will I ever see a price point like this. ohh man. Can not stop thinking on it.

    Ohh I will get pictures..
     
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  8. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Here it is during its last move.
     

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  9. Metal

    Metal United States Active Member Active Member

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    I would cut a 1/4" or so slot about a foot out from where the machine will sit

    If it /does/ start to crack the concrete, it will be easy to detect and the crack will follow the slot (like a sidewalk) rather than ruin the entire garage pad
     
  10. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The festivities start tomorrow with a 6 hr drive up to meet the lathe and get 1/2 a day to train on it under power. Then Monday it will follow me home.
    I rearranged my shop layout and changed where the lathe will live. Now it will only be on 2 pads and right in the center of them both. That makes me feel a little better!

    After cruzing through the web me and my friend whipped this toe jack together using 1/2" steel plate and a 10 ton bottle jack. She ain't pretty but I think she has just the right amount of character and beef. It lifted my Blazer without a grunt. Tomorrow will be the real test.
     

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  11. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Vice President Staff Member Administrator

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    That have the Mazatrol control on it? If so it's not bad. Conversational programming or if you have CAM you can get a postprocessor that will spit out the G-code. I've spent a little time on an 18n I believe it was. Brand new, very tight accurate machine.If it has the tool presetter on the arm, be careful. If you run over it, it's pretty pricey.

    After about 5 years, the display failed and I had to get a generic flat panel and do a bit of adapting, but brought it to life. By the way, we had a Hyundai the same size, same color, all interchangeable parts. Couldn't say who really builds them for sure, but would bet it's Hyundai. I wouldn't mind having one. They are good starter machines for a small shop.
     
  12. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Yes it has the Mazitrol on it. And I will be finding the post processor for sure because cam is what I am used to using. And simulAtion has saved my bacon many times. The conversational control will be interesting to learn. On the road now! Whohoo!
     
  13. T Bredehoft

    T Bredehoft Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    While the Mazitrol is not simple, it's good, once you get on to it. I had the two day course in Kentucky, was able to start working as soon a st he machine was installed. I did have previous experience on a Mazak mill, but the lathe was entirely different. Granted, this was 20 years ago.
    I'm sorta glad I don't have one now, I'd be tempted to play on it all the tilme. I am envious of your good fortune.
     
  14. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Wow! She is bigger in real life!
    Everything works great. Interface is very intuitive and it comes with all kinds of manuals and such. Spins up great. Hefty ass pneumatic chuck and tailstock. He is throwing in a couple 6" 4 jaw chucks and the soft jaws to mount them into. And one fresh soft jaw and the a couple cut already for 1" stock and one for 3 " stock. Only surprise is ther is no coolant tray. Coolant pump and all that but no tray.

    The toe jack lifted the entire heavy end without any strain at all! That was very satisfying and a load off my mind.

    Did I mention it sure seems bigger in real life! Wow. This is a lot of machine and I am soooo fine with that! (Lucky actually. Very very lucky)

    Now tomorrow for the haul back down the hill and then the exciting part of the move into the garage.
     

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  15. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Great work on the toe-jack, another "tool in the crib" for when you need it.
    I thought it looked big until you showed it beside the lathe!

    Be safe!

    -brino
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  16. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Success!
    What a long stressful day. The planning and thinking worked out. And we got lucky as hell with the weather. Snow at Vail Pass and windshield breaking hail and flooding all along the root home after we got down the mountain. We missed all of it by 20 min. Blessed is what it was.
    Steps:
    Wrecker dragged it out of the shop
    Short trip to metal distribution location and a big forklift to remove it from wrecker and transfer to trailer.
    Big key here was three 12 foot 4x4's laying down on the wood and partial metal grate trailer for later.
    Another awesome idea the driver had was to put the tarp half under the 4x4s then machine on the 4x4's then fold tarp over the front of the machine. Then 3 rolls of duct tape wrapped around the machine after all is tied down and a big strap. The duct tape helped a ton with tarp flap and it lasted the full 6 hr drive. Thank god since we got dumped on many times.
    Then, timing it with traffic, meet up with another wrecker at the end of my street for the transfer off the trailer onto the wrecker.
    Wrecker bed backed up to the 4x4's just below the machine bottom. Then pull it off. Used teflon slide wedges under the 2front feet. Pulled it on and drove to the garage.
    Wrecker slid its bed back and angled up. Lucky there was just enough clearance. He had to jiggle the bed back and forward and scooted the lathe off inch by inch. Then when enough was hanging off the back he tilted it up so I could get the skate under it then angled it back up. Now as he let out the winch and I steered it where I wanted it to go. Then before the last part came off the bed we slipped a skate under each side on the back. Man those homemade skates did the trick. I got to borrow them since the driver was heading back there. It should have worked the same with the hillman rollers.
    Then 3 of us pushed it and pulled it into place. Toe jack one end. Slide 4" half inch thick plates under each foot remove skates lower. Repeat for other side. Back to the day job tomorrow. Dang it!!
     

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  17. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Do you have any pictures of those?

    Jeez, Doesn't your employer know that this addition to the family warrants some time off to get to know each other?

    That is one big lathe.
    Congrats on the successful move!

    -brino
     
  18. Zamfir

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  19. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Been a while.. Stupid life taking me away from doing fun stuff! well kinda..

    I finally have a phase converter on the way and a list of tools we are picking up. I will update this post as I get the phase converter installed and the machine running.
    Then I can start a thread for my first project on it. ER32 collet holders with a 1.5" wide body 3 inches long with a full through hole.
    Fingers crossed she runs without too much hassle after the long trip over the mountains. Hopefully by next weekend I will be making chips!
     
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  20. Wreck™Wreck

    Wreck™Wreck United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    How fast does this machine rapid?
     
  21. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Vice President Staff Member Administrator

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    The little 18 I ran a long time ago was capable of 1,200 IPM, but we tweaked it down a bit for safety, and changed the accel/decel curves a bit just because we didn't like jerking the machine around. I would imagine this 20 would be similar.
     
  22. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It lives!!

    Not sure about max rapids but after zeroing it and jogging it I about shat my pants. I turned the jog percent down to 30% and then felt a little more comfortable. Slapped in a tool and faced some aluminum. No nipple! No shims! Hell yeah!

    What a long hard but satisfying weekend. Started with a crate and ended making my first chips. I had to run my 240v 1awg wire run about 40 foot. I managed to get two 1awg and one 4awg into 1" thin walled steel flex conduit. I bundled the wire and laid it all straight in the yard and slid the conduit over it. Then mounted the conduit and wires everything up after the fact. Shoulders are a bit sore. That stuff gets heavy! I have about 10 foot of length coiled up in case I decide to move the location of the phase converter. I just got everything buttoned up before supper. Now time to dig into the manuals and U-tube and start programming.
     

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  23. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Ohh man. Need to fix my flag! Lol.
     
  24. Wreck™Wreck

    Wreck™Wreck United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That would walk the machine right out of the room when threading.
     
  25. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Vice President Staff Member Administrator

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    We considered it a little hard on the leadscrews and ball nuts, as well as the servomotors. The machines are balanced well enough to do it, but honestly, it's a little un-nerving to hover over the feed hold button when the machine rapids up to the stock that fast. One finger on the cycle start, another over the feed hold is no way to run a operation. Especially if your programmer is a little careless. Even single stepping through a program, it's not a bad idea to override the traverse speeds a bit.
     
  26. Jonathans

    Jonathans United States Professional Fish Killer H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I can't see your garage anymore! What a beast. If I could operate it I'd be jealous.
     
  27. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hit a snag on the first program. Tool turret was unlocking but not turning. Dig out the manuals and schematics and started troubleshooting. Turret turns fine clockwise. Which is how it spins when hitting the button manually. During a program, the turret can turn counter clockwise if the tool it needs is closer in that direction. That was it. No signal going to the solid state relay to drive it ccw. Reseated the board and connectors involved. No joy. Got ready to pull out the oscope. There is a diode protection board wired from the controls then to the relay. One of the wires was broken at the bend inside the insulation. Ended up being an easy fix.

    The programming is fairly straight forward and is getting easier.

    First program went great. So great it was time to make something. So I found the largest bit I had on hand and we programmed a very oversized knob. Hardest part was figuring out how to make the chamfer on the part where it got parted off from the stock. But man is making threads on this thing just damn easy!!
    Yeah, unnerving at rapids. It is really amazing how much mass is spinning there on the head. And how much mass is on that tool turret hauling ass right At the head. After making these we were like. ****. I guess we need to buy some 4140 steel so we can make the collet adapters. Internal threading tool on the way. I am bringing an air station to the lathe this weekend so I can have 90 psi coolmist blasting stuff out the way and cooling and lubrication.

    Made my chip pans and some angle aluminum pieces to bridge the gaps between the 3 pans. Should work for now.

    Yeah, one whole bay is now taken up by that monster. But it is worth it!

    Anyone have a suggestion on what tool to get for knurling on this machine?

    Thanks!
    Eric
     

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  28. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Definitely!

    Great trouble shooting, and glad to hear your making chips.

    -brino
     
  29. Wreck™Wreck

    Wreck™Wreck United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Good work.
    I have never run a Mazak lathe but if it is like other conversational controls putting a chamfer on the back when parting is easy.
    Run the parting tool at the final Z down to the chamfer diameter then back it out past the OD and move it in Z the distance required then angle it from the OD to the chamfer diameter and finish Z then part off. Use line moves in conversational mode, this should only require 8 lines or so.

    Like so.
    [​IMG]
     
  30. Zamfir

    Zamfir United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'll have to try that.

    Thanks for the information!

    I made up some ER32 collet holders for the tools and one stubby one for the chuck itself. Man, steel boring bars are about worthless.. it is great remembering all the stuff about chatter and flexing..wow. been way too long.
    I have a 1/2" carbide boring bar on the way and it will be interesting to see the difference on the finish it makes. I left 2 of the 5 collet holders drilled and waiting for boring so I can see the difference. Also cut out some tool bushings. Now for the fun part..
    boring 4" long holes of the varying sizes and trying to keep them precise. looks like a pre drill, then bore out .25" then ream is the only choice for doing a 4" long .250 diameter and .5" diameter bushings out of 4140 steel.
     

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