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Scoping a Monarch 10ee

Discussion in 'MONARCH MACHINE TOOL CO.' started by cpd62, Oct 5, 2013.

  1. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    I've determined that a Monarch 10ee will be the perfect fit for what I want to do and for my shop space. I found a reputable dealer who buys-sells and restores. He'll sell as is and do any number of repairs all the way up to full restorations.

    He has 3 10ee's. The one that is most ready is a 1940's round dial that has been modified to a baldor 3hp motor with a Mitsubishi vari-drive so it can easily be converted to single phase power. I had the chance to look it over today. It runs very smoothly. It had a collet closer which has a bit of wobble, but probably just needs some indicating and adjustment. I'm new to this and have never done it, but it didn;t seem to tough. The gears looked great. It also had a taper attachment

    The compound and cross-slide probably needed a cleaning. The Gibs slide probably needs to be broken down and cleaned. Will this require any special tools or knowledge. Is it worth paying someone to do this?

    I asked him to price out the basic machine and give me quotes for it with the 5C collet closer, and some clean up on the Gibs.

    Any thoughts on what I should expect as a reasonable price for this? I'm new to metal lathe work and it looks like a collet closer can add at least $800. Is it worth it. I'd like to work with small stuff, building surgical instrument prototypes (hobby work).

    Thanks
    Christian
     
  2. Chuck K

    Chuck K United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Christian, I like your style. A 10EE is not what most hobbyists think of as a starter lathe. If you've done your homework and that's the lathe you want, then go for it. A collet closer would add something to the cost but 800 more sounds a bit excessive. I could be wrong. I've never seen the monarch closer. Mine has the drawbar setup. I've had a closer on a lathe in the past and I prefer the drawbar. When you want to use collets, it's quick to install it, and when your using a chuck it's completely out of the way. The closer I had wobbled too. It doesn't affect the precision at the nose. I'm not sure what your referring to when you say the "gib slide" needs to be taken apart. You can take the cross slide and compound apart with basic tools. For that matter you can remove the whole carriage with basic tools. Like any used lathe, you want to look for wear on the ways and saddle. For me the fact that the drive has been changed wouldn't be a plus. I like the way the original drive performs. I would be curious what kind of prices he's asking for his machines.

    Chuck
     
  3. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    Thanks for the advice on the collet closer. He hasn't put a price together yet. Sounds like it might be best to stick with asic tooling and add as needed Is a drawbar standard or would I have to look for that separately. I'm coming from a beginner's perspective so any advice is helpful.
    I wasn't familiar with the term "gib" either but watched a video on YouTube by "mrpete" and he explained it as the mechanism that the cross slide and compound slide on.

    I know there are a lot of purists on the forum who really speak highly of the original drive systems. The modified drive that this one has really has a nice smooth sound and feel to it. I don't have much to compare to. It was nice to see the machine in person. Looks like I wouldn't outgrow it. Also it will be an easy conversion to single phase.
     
  4. Chuck K

    Chuck K United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Christian, I don't know what was standard on the 10EE. I would imagine you could buy it set up different ways. A drawbar in not that hard to make. You would have to find a D1-3 5c adapter for it. That would be pricey I'm sure. When buying a used machine it's usually best to find one that has the basic attachments that you want and pay a little more for it as a package going in. When you start buying that stuff piecemeal it gets very costly. That's why people buy them and part them out. A worn machine is worth more in parts than as a whole. The gibs your talking about are real easy to adjust. They're tapered with an adjusting screw on each end. You tighten or loosen the fit by adjusting the screws. Monarch drive systems are not my strong point, but I have learned a few basic things about them since owning one. The original drive is a very smooth system. The lathe will produce a very nice surface finish running in belt drive just like the Hardinge HVLH. It does well in gear drive too. The variable drive that has been installed on the machine you're looking at probably does well also. Changing that drive over to single phase would just degrade the system.

    Chuck
     
  5. Bellwether

    Bellwether United States Active User Active Member

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  6. rwilliams

    rwilliams United States Active Member Active Member

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    How did it shoot after you got the scope on it?
     
  7. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Christian,

    I would stay away from the 3.5HP VFD, I think that you'll find it under-powered. Monarch tried 5HP VFD drives and they weren't very satisfactory, so they went to 7.5HP motors. One of the nice features of the DC drives is the smooth, slow speeds for threading.

    Running a motor/generator (MG) 10EE from single phase power is not a big deal. You can go the static converter route for under $100 and the rotary phase converter route for about $200. The tube drive machines can run directly from single-phase power. If either type of drive is not running they can be challenging to get running if you're not electrically savvy. I’ve helped a lot of people get MG machines running, the only requirement there is that you have patience. It's also possible to drive the DC spindle motor from single phase using an after market DC controller for as little as $200, but that depends on what you have and what your requirements are.

    10EEs have flame hardened ways, so the ways can look nice but the machine can still have a lot of wear on the underside of the saddle. A good indication of wear is the clearance between the saddle and the front flat way for the tailstock; a machine in good condition will have over 0.005" clearance.

    Lever collet closers are very nice if you are doing a run of parts, but for one-offs a 5C or 2J collet chuck will be enough. 2J collets are very nice and have the same through capacity as the 10EE spindle (1-3/8"). If you can find a Sjogren 2J collet chuck you'll be set. You can pick one up on eBay for $200 or so, if you’re patient.

    CDCO Machinery (http://www.cdcotools.com) has a 5C collet chuck and D1-3 back-plate for under $200. I have one of the back-plates and some tool holders and am happy with them. I have not seen the collet chuck, but I have heard good things about it and I plan to buy one at some point.

    You can completely service the saddle, taper attachment and apron without special tools. It's an extremely good idea to plan on doing this on any 10EE that you buy, for various reasons. The cross-slide, compound and taper attachment need to be taken apart and cleaned from time to time and you may as well start when you first get the machine. (IMHO, this is true of any lathe.)

    Cal
     
  8. rwilliams

    rwilliams United States Active Member Active Member

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    I hope my attempt at humor did not offend anyone. :whiteflag:

    It looks like you are getting some good information, best of luck. I would be in hog heaven if I could get a good 10EE.

    Bob W.
     
  9. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    Cal,
    Thanks for the advice. The cdco website looks like it will be a good source. He hasn't gotten back to me with a quote yet. How much is reasonable for the 5C collet closer? He is going to price it with and without.

    Thanks,
    Christian
     
  10. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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  11. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Christian,

    I'm not sure what a lever collet-closer goes for. There was also a handwheel closer. The D1-3 collet nose that either type uses is pretty rare; they usually go for over $300.

    $2500 for a non-running 10EE with no tooling is too high. If it were otherwise in pretty good condition it might be worth as much as $1500. Maybe you should go have a look and see what he has.

    Cal
     
  12. Chuck K

    Chuck K United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Cal, You don't want the 5c collet chuck from CDCO. I buy a lot of stuff from Frank, but you have to be careful what you buy. He told me last year that he wasn't selling the the 5c chucks anymore because he had too many returns. I saw a couple of them that he had. You could see the taper was off center just looking at it. He said he had a new source for them, but I haven't had one in my hands so I couldn't comment on that. The tool posts and holders are decent for the price. Sometimes you have to touch them up a little. As long as you understand that your buying low quality stuff at a cheap price you won't be let down. I've never bought a D1-3 plate from him, but the threaded plates have been good.

    Chuck
     
  13. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    Here are some pics of the Monarch that I'm waiting on a price quote for. The standard tachometer has been replaced by a speed control knob. The guy with the ebay machine (1957) said it doesn't run but he hasn't had anyone look at it. Thinks it might be a tube but can't say for sure. He's about 45 minutes from me (I'm just short on time) and it sounds like a project that could be unpredictable.
    Untitled (3).jpg Untitled (8).jpg Untitled (2).jpg

    Untitled (3).jpg Untitled (8).jpg Untitled (2).jpg
     
  14. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Re: Scoping a Monarch 10ee - RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY FAST!!

    I would steer well clear of the machine from the dealer. There are just too many weird things about it. Somebody has changed the drive for the feed belt so that it comes directly off of the spindle motor, instead of off of the spindle, so now the feeds are not directly related to the rotation of the spindle. This was probably done as part of the installation of the lever collet closer, which is not a factory install.

    The idea of running wiring through the center cavity of headstock, where the thread gearing is, is one of the most bizarre things that I've ever seen done to a 10EE. It looks like the wiring comes out the back, under the front spindle bearings where the headstock drum switch used to mount. If so, that means that someone drilled a hole in the headstock casting for the wire! YIKES!!:panic:

    On top of that, the back-gear appears to have been removed. The shift linkage is gone, so the gearbox is more than likely gone as well. With a 3.5HP AC drive, the machine will be useless for low speed operations like threading.

    And that's just what I can see from 3 pictures. I shudder to think was else has been done to the poor machine. This is a Frankenlathe!

    I wouldn't give the guy more than $1000, EVEN WITH the taper attachment and collet chuck. That machine may never be a useful machine again, so consider it a parts machine that MAY be useful as a lathe. (Major emphasis on the MAY). Whoever did this conversion to the machine had no clue what they were doing and clearly lacked adult supervision. If it was done by the dealer, then stay the heck away from him because he is totally incompetent!

    This is not the machine for you. Be patient and a much better machine will turn up.

    See if you can get some photos from the Craigslist guy. Pictures of the front and back of the machine will tell me what the original drive was. Ask him to take the cover off of the right end, under the headstock and take a photo of what's inside.

    Cal
     
  15. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    Thanks for the input. The spindle feed is electronically controlled now by the box with the on/off and for/rev switch. The dealer didn't do any of it. He got it that way. It's probably because I'm new to this but it really seemed smooth and had a nice sound. I wouldn't have known that the gearbox had been removed. This is my first time seeing one in person. So I really appreciate you picking up on the gearbox issues.

    He has 2 other 10ee's that weren't powered up but could be. They look to be 1950's square dial versions. I'm in no rush (as no one should be to buy a 3200lb. object.) The dealer looks reputable. He and family has been in business for 70+ years (Boston Machinery Inc.). I could look at the other 2.

    I emailed the ebay guy about seeing the lathe in person but so far no response.

    Thanks,
    Christian
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  16. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    Here are some pics of the $2500 ebay machine. It is not running. The owner is not sure what the problem is. He thinks it's a tube issue but that's just speculation.

    lathe3.jpg lathe2.jpg lathe1.jpg

    lathe3.jpg lathe2.jpg lathe1.jpg
     
  17. Jeffers

    Jeffers United States Active User Active Member

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    I looked at the other two square dial machines which I thought were a much better prospect. One had a gearbox issue on the dog clutch, the other seemed ok. He was ready to take 5 k for it. I did see it run and it worked fine. I passed and managed to find a HLV H for 2k with some tooling.
    The 10 ee is a really nice lathe but make sure you do not underestimate the weight of it
     
  18. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    What was your impression of Boston Machinery and the guys there? Besides the asthetics of the oddly modified 10ee, did you run it and find any issues with it? It seemed to be a smooth running machine? I'm still trying to get more info from them on it. SInce I'm new to these machines I'm not sure I would pick up on some of the subtle findings. What were the specs on the 5K machine? Seems a bit steep.

    C
     
  19. Jeffers

    Jeffers United States Active User Active Member

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    They were very helpful. No pressure to buy, if anything quite the reverse, they wanted to make sure the machines were good before selling.
    from memory the square dials were consecutive serial no. dial machines with the higher serial no. The better one. They run both of them, issue as described with the lower serial no. one. I offered 2.5k because of the lack of tooling (expensive to find otherwise) which was probably on the high side, but as dealers they were looking for more. There were two better machines for sale in Maine with tooling and one in ny with a sony dro which were better value.
    make an offer and move on, something else always comes up in this age of machine.
     
  20. cpd62

    cpd62 Active User Active Member

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    I agree with you. They've been very helpful and not pushy at all. They're actually a bit slow to get back to me with a quote. Nice people. They will sell as is or quote any level of restoration that you desire.
     

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