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Replacement Lathe

Discussion in 'MONARCH MACHINE TOOL CO.' started by milomilo, Nov 14, 2016.

  1. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I currently have a Husky PC36 lathe, and i have been looking to upgrade to a better lathe. A neighbor bought a lathe a year ago but never set it up and now he says he would like to sell it. It is a Monarch 10EE with a 20" bed. It came with 3 phase but was ran on a hydraulic pump for several years due to no 3 phase availability. Manufacturer date is 1943. Seriously thinking about buying it and selling my current lathe. The Monarch is a far better lathe than I have now. Plan on taking off the hydraulic pump and using a VFD for power.

    Overall condition looks good to me. Comes with a 3 jaw chuck, no 4 jaw. Includes a steady rest, KD tool post, and has a taper attachment. One of my questions is will a 10hp VFD run the lathe OK? I plan on getting some pics tomorrow to post.
     
  2. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Hi Chris,

    10EEs of that vintage had a 3HP DC spindle motor powered by a 3-phase motor/generator (MG) set. The spindle motor had a "back gear" unit that could be run either direct or 4:1 reduction for low speed operation. Most VFD conversions use the back gear unit for better low speed performance. I don't know how satisfactory it would be without the back gear. You need to find out how much of the original drive is left. If your friend still has the pieces to put the original drive back together, that's the way to go. You can use an inexpensive "static converter" to run the 3-phase MG from single phase.
     
  3. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The hydraulic pump that they used to drive the lathe attached to the pulley shaft and would be simple to remove. The 3 phase motor and wiring is still in place.
     
  4. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    duplicate
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  5. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have read of a number of10EE conversions which used a larger Hp motor running a VFD with good results without the back gear. I think there are a few factors that I have seen as suggestions. Use a 7.5-10Hp motor, run sensorless vector mode. There is a few tricks to squeeze a bit more out of this scenario. If you use what is known as an inverter motor, you can spin them much higher RPM with full Hp, so this a 7.5Hp motor can wind to around 4500 -5000RPM and a 10 Hp around 4000RPM. By spinning the motor higher it gives you more range on the low end to go lower. Look at the Black Max and Blue Max Marathon motors, Baldor IDNM series. There is a very wide range in pricing, so you need to hunt on eBay and know how to find one. In running one of these motors in sensorless vector, you can also push the short term overload to almost 2X the motor rating under very tight RPM control.

    Now the wrinkle to all this, is you need a huge VFD to drive this, and even larger if running single phase. So something like a 20Hp WJ200-150LF will run 1K, and then the associated wiring. So a lot of costs to figure into the picture.

    http://www.veoh.com/watch/yapi-iM8Hrx9gaXY
     
  6. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Pics coming later today.
     
  7. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Pics of the lathe.

    SAM_1101.JPG SAM_1100.JPG SAM_1102.JPG SAM_1103.JPG SAM_1104.JPG
     
  8. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    More pics.

    SAM_1105.JPG SAM_1106.JPG SAM_1107.JPG SAM_1108.JPG
     
  9. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    More pics.

    SAM_1109.JPG SAM_1110.JPG SAM_1111.JPG SAM_1113.JPG
     
    Chipper5783 likes this.
  10. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I know very little about 3 phase but it looks ot me like this lathe is all set up for 3 phase. So I should be able to use a VFD for power and presuming all the electrical is OK it should run like it should.
     
  11. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The 10EE was a DC motor, so it cannot be hooked up to a VFD and run. If the original motor and electronics are all intact and functional, the machine can be run off of single phase using L1 and L3, L2 is not used to run the lathe itself. That is a big if for all the electrics and mechanicals to be there and working. A VFD conversion is no simple task, it is expensive, and as mentioned by others you would be better off using the lathe reduction gear for low speeds.
     
  12. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    According to the manual the primary motor is ac which is connected to the dc generator, all of which are still there intact. The plate on the ac 3 phase motor says it is 3 phase, and I believe the coolant pump is 3 phase as well. All the VFD will do is supply 3 phase to the ac motor. All the other parts are there for the rest of the functions. It is still unknown of all the motors are good. I won't know that until I get power to the Ac motor. You can see the AC motor in the last pics top left and the dc in the top right pic.
     
  13. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Here is the manual I have for the lathe.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Chris,

    The motor/generator (MG) is there, under the chip pan. I can't see the exciter, which sits on top of the MG, under the tailstock. You have a coolant pump; that's not a good thing, IMHO, since machines with coolant tend to have more issues due to corrosion from coolant. It looks like the DC spindle motor is there as well. I would need to see what's behind the cover on the headstock end to see if the DC control panel is there, etc.. A photo or two looking behind the cover on the tailstock end will tell us about the exciter. Get photos of the commutators of the generator, exciter and spindle motor.

    The main AC contactor is behind the cover on the back of the machine, below the headstock and behind the QC gearbox. I would like to see what's in there.

    The MG wants to run at constant speed, so there's no advantage to a VFD to power it and 5HP VFDs that can put out 230 VAC 3-phase are expensive. You can run it with a rotary phase converter (RPC) or "static converter" for a lot less money than a VFD.

    What's the serial number? (It's on the plate in the second photo, but I can't make it out.)

    A lot of covers are off. Are they around, or missing?

    One interesting feature of the machine is the ELSR (Electric Leadscrew Reverse) option. Yours seems to be fairly complete, which is unusual for round-dials. (This model 10EE is called a "round-dial" because of the shape of the selector plate on the quick change gearbox; later machines have a square plate and are called "square-dials.)

    Overall, the odds appear to be in your favor that the original drive is still there. If so, it can probably be made to run again without too much drama. I know quite a bit about this drive system and will be able to help you with that.
     
  15. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I will get the pics tomorrow. All the covers are there, just not installed. I will get the serial number tomorrow too. The VFD I was going to get was not so much for this lathe, but so I could use the VFD for other 3 phase equipment in the future. In my shop I am the only one to run things so I could just switch the VFD to any other 3 phase stuff I may get in the future. I may just go with the static converter for cost reasons. Thanks for the offer to help as this 3 phase stuff is all new to me.
     
  16. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Here are the pics of the motor generator and a better pic of the data plate. The manufacturer number is 722. I'm guessing that is the serial number? Also included a pic of all the parts that come with it. The last pic is one part I am not sure as to what it is.
     

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  17. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I am not familiar with the older Monarch AC motor generator machines, just the newer versions without the AC motor generator. I was able to pull up a simplistic wiring diagram on this version. I think you would be best off with a RPC, the static converters one needs to derate the AC motor generator drive. A VFD does not like different loads switched in and out which can damage them under load, and the VFD settings are usually machine/motor specific. I have no idea how it would be setup to work in this type of motor generator control system.

    Monarch 10EE Motor Generator Schematic.jpg
     
  18. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for the info.
     
  19. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    A motor generator EE will run fine on a 4-8 HP heavy duty Static Converter. I have seen it done with Phase a matic converter. Not ideal but for a few hundred you are up and running. Downside of MG machines is they are loud, you essentially have 3 motors running, the AC, the exciter and the DC. Throw in a rotary converter and now you have 4 motors. A later model with tube drive would be my preference, owned one for over a decade now.
     
  20. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Yes, manufacturer number is the serial number. Part of the serial number is missing. It should be 5 digits for that machine. Look on the right end of the bed, between the tailstock flat way and the front Vee way, it's stamped there.

    The belt-driven exciter is in place and appears to be connected. That's good.

    You have a vintage Monarch follower rest; nice. The steady rest isn't a 10EE steady; it looks like someone made an adapter to get it to the right height. For no more often than you need one, it will work find.

    It you have more than one 3-phase machine, your best bet is to go for a rotary phase converter (RPC). If you get a so called "static phase converter" (SPC), you can use it to make an RPC by just adding an idler motor and some run caps, so I would start there if I was on a budget. I know of several 10EEs running from SPCs.

    I agree with mkjs that trying to use a VFD to drive multiple machines, even one at a time, is a bad idea.

    A SPC is nothing more than a motor starter, that is, a relay and a starting capacitor (or two). It functions by connecting the starting capacitor(s) to the third phase during startup, much the same way that a capacitor-start single-phase motor is started. Better SPCs include run capacitors to continue to power the third phase after the starting caps kick out, directing current from the other two sets of windings into the third set of windings, as the phase of the voltage changes. An RPC is just a SPC with an idler motor (any 3-phase motor will work, 7.5HP being a good size for a 10EE). The idler motor acts as a mechanical capacitor, providing current for the third phase of the load machine. Correctly balanced, an RPC can provide fairly well balanced 3-phase voltage to a machine.

    WNY Supply has a static converter for $75 with free shipping: http://phaseconverterusa.com/3--5-HP-HD-SCX-Static-Phase-Converter-_p_33.html
    WNY used to have a their own webpage with a lot more products; it looks like they are now being sold through phaseconverterusa. I don't know if this converter includes run capacitors or not. If not, I would add two run caps to help balance the third phase. Some 10EE owners have reported issues with static converters when rapidly reversing the spindle and I believe that the lack of run caps is a explanation for that problem.

    The photo of the commutator is that of the generator. It looks very dirty. I would remove the brushes and clean all the three commutators with a toothbrush and solvent (letting the solvent dry overnight) before trying to run the machine. You may need to replace the exciter's belt if it's been sitting a long time.

    I still need to see what's under the cover on the headstock end. Take photos of the insides of the DC Control Panel, the large box to the right of the DC motor, and the big rheostats above it.

    Would it be possible for you to upload higher resolution photos, or put them on something like DropBox or PhotoBucket?
     
  21. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I can get the pics tomorrow. Is the last pic the follower rest? I will get the serial number of the bed too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  22. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Yes, the last photo is of the steady rest.
     
  23. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Sorry Cal it will have to be tomorrow for the pics. Snowing here today.
     
  24. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Cal:
    Snow has not yet melted. Maybe Sunday I can get the pics.
     
  25. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The serial number is 23722. Got it off the ways. Link to PB.
    http://s886.photobucket.com/user/milomilo/library/Monarch?sort=3&page=1

    I tried to see what you asked for regarding the headstock but not sure what you are looking for.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  26. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Hi Chris,

    The photos on PhotoBucket are still low resolution. They download as 640x480. Is your camera set for such a low resolution mode?

    What I'm looking for is what's behind the big cover on the left (headstock) end of the machine. (This is the cover that has the hydraulic motor sticking through it.) The DC control panel and Ohmite rheostats are (hopefully) behind that cover, along with the spindle motor.

    Overall, my impression of the machine from your photos gives me hope. None of the handles are broken. You have all the original oil fill caps and the tailstock dauber (used to apply white lead to lubricate a dead center) are all there. The taper attachment and ELSR seems to be intact. Very few machines of this vintage are that complete; the oil fill caps and tailstock dauber from my machine are long gone. You've got some nice tooling with it. I say it definitely bears further investigation. What does your neighbor want for the machine and tooling?

    Cal
     
  27. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    He is asking for $1000. Same price he paid for it a year ago, then decided for medical reasons he was not going to use it. It snowed again today so may be a couple more days before I can get it uncovered and get the pics you asked for. My camera is set for photo size 2592x1944 now. Quality is set at super fine. Did not see a resolution setting on the menu. I am no camera whiz either. My camera is a Samsung 16.4 pixel, model WB1100F.
     
  28. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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  29. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    That one came down at 1024x768. Which is a bit better. I think you can tell it to upload the files at the maximum 1Mb size and it will adjust the file resolution so that the file is 1Mb in size. Your most recent one is 194kb, so it's probably PhotoBucket that's reducing the resolution. Try the 1Mb file size option.

    $1000 for that machine is a deal. You could turn around, sell the machine for scrap, sell the tooling on eBay and be ahead on that deal, so you can't get hurt. The poor old girl is begging you to take her inside before it gets any colder!

    (But make no mistake, this machine will take a lot of work before you have a usable machine.)
     
  30. milomilo

    milomilo United States Auction Addict H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The file size I chose in PB is the highest resolution listed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016

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