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PM-1440GS or PM1340GT lathe or maybe a PM1440GT

Discussion in 'PRECISION-MATTHEWS' started by jer, Apr 6, 2017.

  1. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Hi all, I am trying to find out more about a newer lathe Matt offers, the PM-1440GS. He says there out there but I can't find anyone that has one. I'm looking into a larger lathe and this one looks good on paper but I want to hear about real hands on experiences if possible. TIA.

    UPDATE: I went with a PM1440GT 3 phase unit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  2. jbolt

    jbolt United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have not heard of this model but looking at the ebay add it looks very similar to the Grizzly G0709 gunsmith lathe. The differences I see right away are the PM has a 2" spindle bore and 3 hp single phase motor vs the 1.57" bore and 2 HP motor of the G0709. The G0709 has the torque lock feature on the tail stock where the PM does not. I would ask if the ways are hardened. It does not say in the ebay add. Most people who have the G0709 seem happy with them.

    pm-1440gs.jpg g0709.jpg
     
  3. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    You caught the differences jbolt. I have the Owners Manual on the PM1440GS and have compared the two for a few weeks and they seem to be the same machine except for the mentioned items. The GS seems to be a lot of lathe for $5999. The machines I am considering are the PM1236, PM1236T, PM1340GT and the PM1440GS. Two of the above are in stock and the others should be here in June. It is hard to make a decision on machines you have never seen. Any of them will be a big step up in size. They all would be great.
     
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  4. jbolt

    jbolt United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I hear you on buying sight unseen. When I purchased my PM-1440GT the very first run was still being made at the factory so it was a big unknown to everyone. No regrets now.

    The G0709 was on my short list when I was looking. The PM-1440GS would have been also if I had know about them. I really like the D1-5 spindle nose over the D1-4 and I wouldn't want to do without a 2" spindle bore now.

    Everyone here who has a PM-130GT likes them a lot. I wanted a pull out chip tray, foot brake and coolant system so it was not on my list but it looks like a very capable lathe.

    My two cents: If you have room and the budget get as big as you can afford.

    Happy hunting.
     
  5. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Your wants seem to mirror mine on features. I want a cast iron base, foot brake, pull out chip tray and the 2" spindle bore is nice too. The PM1340GT looks to be a very good machine but I want some features it doesn't have. I can't afford a PM1440GT so the PM1440GS fits the bill. I know Matt has sold around 100 of them but I can't find out much other than what the Manual and Matt say. The GS is a Chinese machine but Matt says "the build quality is good, but it is a Chinese machine."

    Just to muddy the waters some there will be a cast iron base for the PM1236 out very soon, as in next week, and the new PM1236T will be out in June. The 1236 falls just short of my needs and the 1236T is close to the 1340GT in features so I am back to the PM1340GT or the PM1440GS.

    Hopefully a PM1440GS owner will chime in. I had the same problem when I bought my PM1030V a couple of years back. There were 40/60 out but nobody was writing about them either.
     
  6. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The PM-1440GS are no longer listed on eBay, both sold. The 3Hp motor, larger spindle and DRO would swing me to the PM vs. the Grizzly.
    One more to look at, just to muddy the waters, not sure of where it is produced (I think it is Chinese origin): http://www.ebay.com/itm/14-Swg-40-c...-ENGINE-LATHE-D1-4-with-1-1-2-bo/152486846396
    Not sure about the 1236 size given you seem to want something more substantial, I would go for a 1340GT between the two. Since you have had a Chinese lathe previously, you probably for familiar with some of the fit/finish issue that are often annoying but not major. All will get the job done and there are a number of reviews on the G0709 which appears very similar, but if you want to go big than the 1440 would be the way to go. I have used similar 1440 machines with cast iron bases, they definitely have that solid planted feeling, and will pretty much turn anything with ease that you can get on it. Like the pull out chip tray if you do a lot of heavy machining. Also nice is usually 1 or 2 change gears covers everything on these models.

    I would definitely look at better chucks and additional accessories you would want, so more as a total package/cost. I have a 1340GT and it is a very nice lathe, for me it fits my needs, but if the 1440GT was available at the time I would have gone with that. I just did not want to deal with the fit/finish issues I have had on previous Chinese mainland produced machines. But if I where turning larger stock or aggressively cutting stock, than I would go with a 1440. Personally I prefer an enclosed universal gearbox and a larger spindle bore when available.
     
  7. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks for your insight Mark. I am considering all the above machines and the GS looks like it would be more than I would ever need. I probably would never need 3 phase but who knows later on, I put a 3 HP Lenze SMVector on my Super-Max knee mill last year and its great.

    My wife told me to get the PM1440GT and be done with it. Hows that for a great wife? Shes mighty loose with my retirement isn't she? I might take her up on that. LOL.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  8. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    My wife says the same thing, at this age if you can buy once and be happy it is worth it, certainly have worked hard through the years. I would go 3 phase, just be aware that in my experience the VFDs do not work well with 2 speed motors. I have been helping a number of individuals do a simple VFD conversion that uses the contactors, very quick and you are up and running with minimal additional expense. My vote would be for the 3 phase 1440GT, you know what your going to get and it will put a smile on your face every time you use it. QED. :beguiled:
     
  9. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Truthfully the PM1340GT is the best of both worlds in my opinion. If I can work it out that is the way to go. 3 phase and VFD would be the first things to do. I'm not very knowledgeable in the electronics needed. My field was 39+ years with an REA on transmission/distribution systems. We quit at the meter pole and my "schooling" was in the 70s. LOL.
     
  10. sanddan

    sanddan Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    mksj can help you with the VFD, he is the resident expert here. He helped me get my PM1340GT up and running.

    Is that a Miata?
     
  11. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    I hope he is very patient, I'm a slow study.

    I want the PM1440GT but don't want to spend ~$2K more than the PM1340GT.

    Yes it is my track car.
     
  12. jbolt

    jbolt United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Whats another 2K among friends ;)

    Ya know you want one....

    20170407_170044.png

    2-1/4" 1018 CRS, .035" DOC finishing cut, 500 rpm, .009" feed ........

    20170407_170059.png

    :surrender:
     
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  13. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Do you have a spider on your 1440GT? Yes I want one, its the $10K that I have problems with. LOL. Anymore pictures of that fine piece of machinery?
     
  14. jbolt

    jbolt United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Pictures of the spider here.

    The whole thread of receiving and modifications here. Spent more than I originally intended but in the end it was totally worth it. Has almost paid for itself in customer work.
     
  15. Matt P

    Matt P Australia Iron Registered Member

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    If it were me I'd go with the 134oGT over the Chinese lathe.
    I have a 1340GT and 1440GT, while looking for the 1440, I looked at quite a few lathes and the difference between the Tawianese and Chinese lathes is very noticeable IMO.
    What are you planning on using it for, and do you need the 1440 size ??
    Matt P
     
  16. bss1

    bss1 United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have the PM1340GT. It's a great machine and am very happy with it. When I was looking, the 1340 was more machine than I thought I needed for my prospective projects and the space available. That said, the larger spindle bore and enclosed gear box of the 1440GT would be nice. If you have the space and budget go for the larger machine. If not, I don't think you would be disappointed at all with the 1340.

    Definitely go with the 3 phase motor and VFD. Mark helped me with one of his VFD conversion systems and while it took some time and effort to remove and reinstall the electrical system, he makes it it a simple process and has a good set of instructions, photos, and labeled connections. There have been many of us that have gone through this process and can help with questions. Dan, Mark and Jay who have already posted were very helpful and patient with me and all the questions I had.

    The variable speed, soft start, breaking, and proximity stop are really nice features to have. There are many threads on this topic you can read up on.

    The best thing about buying one of these two machines is the depth of info already posted here and available from the many generous members.

    Good luck and keep us posted on your decision.
     
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  17. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    Regarding VFD with 2 speed motor, I agree ... mostly. I have been running a 3 hp Teco FM VFD successfully with a Jet JTM-1 , 2HP step pulley 2 speed motor mill for 13 years. It needs to warm up for 30 seconds on lower speed pulley before jumping up to high speed but has worked well for all these years if I stay between 40 and 80 cycles. I briefly step down to 15 cycles for tapping sometimes but those are brief periods. If I ever smoke the motor I will replace motor with one more suitable for the purpose, but I have gotten away with this for years. The Jet is a Taiwanese machine and motor, chinese motor, I don't know if I would do it, but they have improved dramatically over the years.
     
  18. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    JBOLT definitely has the a sweet lathe setup. A lot of time and effort went into his revamp of his lathe.

    The 1340GT does everything I need it to do and I plan to keep it for a long time. The spend factor was an issue when I was looking, and my "budget" almost doubled by the time I was done :eek 2:, but because I have had "quality control" issues on previous Chinese mainland machines, my compromise was toward quality as opposed to size. I am happy with my choice, it is a great lathe, but one always lusts for bigger/heavier machine. It is a difficult call between the lathes listed, but really boils down to the type of work you plan on doing and cost compromise. I think either a 1340 or 1440 would be a huge step up.

    On the two speed motors and VFDs, the VFDs can be programed for the characteristics of each winding setup/load (4P/8P). I have twice tried this on 2 speed motors, but usually one the motor speed settings did not run very well. In both cases the motor was replaced with an inverter motor usually run up to 120 or 180 Hz. Newer inverter motors do very well as a replacement, one can boost the VFD overload on these motors to around 180-200% for up to a minute which can provide a lot more short term power at the lower frequency settings. Also, if you over speed the motors you deliver more spindle Hp, and comparable torque to a standard motor when you factor in the belt/gearing ratios. I rarely see more than +/- 1 RPM change on my lathe regardless of the load and motor frequency from 20-120Hz. The ability to tweak the speed or adjust it while turning is a game changer for me, I find a very narrow RPM range for boring or cutoff that works well for a specific material.
    Mark
     
  19. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks guys for all the posts. As you can see in my sign. line I have been busy gathering machines and tools for my home/farm (some of my own gun work) shop since I retired. This mostly started when I had a gunsmith friend, who has a Sharp 1340VS that I love to operate, build my last 1000 yd target gun, I'm not sure weather to cuss him or thank him. As you can suppose I have spent way more, many thousands, than I thought was possible. My PM1030V was adequate for most of my needs for around a year then ballooned from there.

    My real needs stop with a quality 12x36" lathe. I needed to work some 1 3/4" round stock for a friend a while back and couldn't. I decided to get a larger lathe because a 1" spindle bore won't do much in all reality.

    Now we come to my wants/needs list. I want a pull out chip pan, cast iron base, gear box with the least change gears possible, two axis DRO, over 1.5" spindle bore (2" would be nice), 2HP minimum motor, highest quality (9002 factory Chinese or if possible) Taiwanese lathe. There are probably other items I am forgetting right now but you get the idea. I also want to go 3 phase if possible.

    When I was looking for a mill I started thinking a PM25 but after some time and persuading I ended up with a 1984 full size Super-Max knee mill, (and boy am I glad I listened to my friend), that I love to use.

    So when he said get the biggest/best lathe I can afford, I am going to listen to him this time again, here I am and the reason for the thread.

    I hope that made sense. I have decided to weigh out the PM1340GT, PM1440GT and the PM1440GS (just because) and get the best I can afford.

    I'm curious, a question for those of you who have a PM1440GT /w/ 3 phase. Where is the door located that holds the electrical components?

    Have any of you used a Lenze brand VFD, their blue ones, they are American made, on your lathe? I have one on my mill and love it.

    I changed the name of the thread to reflect where it seems to be going.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  20. dpb

    dpb United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The panel (unfortunately not a door) for the stock electrical on the 1440gt is on the back of the headstock support portion of the stand. There is also a removable panel to access electrical and braking components on the left end of the stand. I added an electrical box on hinges (jbolt's idea) on the left end of the stand, to hold the Hitachi VFD, and braking resistor.
     
  21. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks dpb, that's exactly what I wanted to know.
     
  22. Sdmf5150

    Sdmf5150 United States Iron Registered Member

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    It sounds like it's pretty close to the 1440b-ev. What is the difference for the extra 1k? I was looking at the b-ev but wonder if this might be a better choice.
     
  23. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Which machine are asking about we are talking about three different ones here?

     
  24. Sdmf5150

    Sdmf5150 United States Iron Registered Member

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    I was comparing the 1440e-lb to the 1440gs
     
  25. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    The big thing to me is the gearbox style. It has very minimal gear changes which drew me to it. If you are interested in the PM1440GS email Matt and he will send you an Owners Manual attachment . If I hadn't decided to try to buy the 1440 Taiwanese version It was my choice.
     
  26. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    Mark, Jay, or someone else with first hand experience. Matt has both three phase and single phase machines in stock at this moment. Wouldn't it be better, and perhaps cost less to buy a 3 phase machine to start with?

    I have experience with the Lenze SMVector VFD on my mill. It works well and is made in the USA.

    This may happen if I play my cards right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  27. Sdmf5150

    Sdmf5150 United States Iron Registered Member

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    I sent Matt an e-mail to get some info. The sooner I make up my mind and order the better! Haha!
    Decisions decisions
     
  28. jer

    jer Active Member Active Member

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    If you are considering the PM1440GS they are due in June, per Matt. It seems like the best Chinese option going, to me.

    I just decided to try to get a PM1440GT first.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  29. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The lathe cost is the same for the PM single and 3 phase machines, on the 1440GT the single phase is 2Hp and the three phase is 3Hp. Either way, I recommend 3 phase in particular if you want to add a VFD. The difference in performance, features and surface finish is not trivial. Lathes are a bit different when it comes to VFD installs and how to integrate them into the machine. I am familiar with the Lenze SMV VFDs, but the programing and wiring has been worked out for the Hitachi WJ200. Matt sells the WJ200 and it is about $80 less expensive than something like the Lenze ESV222N02YXB, but I can help you either way. As previously mentioned, there is a very simple conversion process where you use the motor forward/reverse contactor to trigger the respective VFD inputs. This works well if the contactors are new and will act just like the stock machine with variable speed and controlled acceleration and braking. The one caveat is the foot brake, you can either use the mechanical brake but should add a dual pole limit switch, the second pole issues a coast command to the VFD, or the limit switch can be used to electronically stop the lathe. Normally you may not have both operational because the VFD has a programed deceleration which can fight the mechanical. I do have full system designs, this is what jbolt used, but it can be a bit overwhelming to start with.

    It is a tough call between the three machines, the 1440's seem to be what you want. The 1440GT being about 25% more expensive with shipping. The 1440GS really has everything you want, but it will not have the user feel of the Taiwanese machines. It really will come down to how much more that is worth, and only you can determine that. All of them will be a huge step up from what you had. You will also need to factor in the additional tooling costs which can be significant. You might omit the preferred packaged and go a la carte on the accessories. I am a big advocate of the set-true type of chucks if you do any kind of repeat work or consider a high quality 4J independent or combo. Matt does sell the Taiwanese Chandox set-true chucks, which are less expensive than the Bison equivalent. You may also want to stock up on holders and few other items that you may want to package.
    Mark
     
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  30. jbolt

    jbolt United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I would get the 3 phase and do the minimum setup to get going. You can add the whistles and bells later. My 1440gt came single phase and I ran it for a month or so before converting to 3 phase. My 3 phase motor is a 3hp Marathon, not a factory 3hp 3ph. Comparing the two, the factory 2hp single phase motor under powered. Marks trail blazing on the VFD conversions and his schematics and programming for the Hitachi make the setup pretty easy.

    Starting with a 3 ph saves you the cost of a motor and sheave plus making a new mount. The Marathon motor I have was the only one I could find short enough to fit without modifying the back splash. It is larger in diameter than the factory motor making it necessary to modify the gear cover.

    I kept the manual brake and changed out the kill switch to a DPDT to set the VFD to coast. I don't trust the VFD breaking to stop an 8" chuck at full speed in an emergency. The manual break does it very well. The electronic breaking is great for most everything else.
     
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