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Nice scraping work

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Bob Korves

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#1
Wes has a very good channel, worth the subscription. I wish my scraping skills were half as good as his. I only recently subscribed to his channel, but everything so far, covering multiple disciplines, is excellent.
 

Dabbler

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#2
Very nice video. I'm a novice scraper, and have only done manual scraping - boy that Biax takes a lot of the work out of it!
 

Bob Korves

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#3
Very nice video. I'm a novice scraper, and have only done manual scraping - boy that Biax takes a lot of the work out of it!
I have an old Biax that has seen better days. It works OK, though it could use some tightening up of the slides. Although the Biax is a lot faster, that also means you can screw up work a lot faster. I do not have enough time using the Biax to be good, but I have found it very easy to make gouges in the work with it if not really careful to hold it properly, without twisting it sideways. I need more practice with it. It is also not light. Using one all day would be a real chore...
 

4gsr

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#4
I like the way Wes does his scraping with the Biax. Never saw Richard teach it that way in the class I attended or any of the other classes I've seen. Wes has the old "blue" Biax, and like you said, that sucker is heavy, and he holds it like it only weighs two pounds. I have the same blue Biax, I can keep it steady and control it if I hold it close to my body and he's holding it out away from his body. And the pattern he creates, I like that. I still have some work to do on a couple of my straightedges, I'll have to give it a try. Thanks for posting Bob!
 

Rex Walters

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#5
I couldn't agree more, Ken! Wes must be strong as an ox to use his arms so much, but his scraping rows are beautiful.

While he doesn't use his legs and lower body the way Richard recommends, the even rows and clear individual scrapes of even depth are precisely what Richard teaches.

I also was really interested in his homebrew marking inks. I just acquired some red and black pigments and tried mixing it with machine oil as he suggested (though he used mortar pigment I'm hopeful any dry pigment should work equally well). I'm off on a business trip tomorrow so I didn't have much time to experiment, but I can report that it works just as Wes said. It's very different than using Canode or Dykem high spot, though.

Wes said he'd post a video about marking inks, but I did just discover one thing on my own: I think trying to mix the pigment and oil directly in the tin was a mistake. Far better to thoroughly mix on a plate and then transfer it to the tin, I think.

IMG_0437.JPG

I'm just using dry artists pigment from a company called Gamblin and machine oil.

I noticed when I used a brayer to spread it on the surface plate that I still had some dry clumps because I hadn't mixed it thoroughly enough. The dry clumps were definitely thick enough to cause bad readings.

I think mixing on a plate thoroughly, and rolling it out thin with a brayer and really working it for a while before scraping it back up to store it in the tin would have worked better.

Here's a part with the red base layer applied:

IMG_0438.JPG

And here is a markup with a fairly thick layer of black on the plate:

IMG_0440.JPG

Sadly, it's not really much higher contrast than I was seeing with Canode or Dykem. It does seem like a reasonable choice for roughing, though.

I want to try some more experiments when I'm back. I've also ordered some special high contrast pigments that should be fun to play with once I receive them.

Regards,
--
Rex
 

benmychree

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#6
Before Rich gave me the leftover marking pigments after one of the classes I attended, I used red lead in machine oil; the shop where I worked was using it for lubricating high stress bolts on bridge hinges, I managed to divert some dry red lead and did the oil mixture and as advised in the Machine Tool Reconditioning book, I put it up in cardboard snuff boxes; in this way, the excess oil is absorbed, and when you want to use it, you just drop a drop or so of lube oil in and mix it around with a finger, and apply it with the very same digit and spread it out with the other fingers included; I do appreciate that the stuff that he gave me is much easier to clean up than red lead or Prussian blue.
 

benmychree

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#7
I remember that in visiting my mother's uncle in Mass., he had served his apprenticeship with Brown & Sharpe starting, I think in 1912; he told me that they scraped there (I assume for reference surfaces) to 64 spots per inch.
 

Rex Walters

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#8
I managed to divert some dry red lead and did the oil mixture and as advised in the Machine Tool Reconditioning book, I put it up in cardboard snuff boxes; in this way, the excess oil is absorbed, and when you want to use it, you just drop a drop or so of lube oil in and mix it around with a finger, and apply it with the very same digit and spread it out with the other fingers included;
One of the things that appeals to me about scraping is just how messy, old-school, and ... tactile the process is. It appeals to my finger-painting inner child. :)

I'm becoming a fan of spreading the marking media with my fingers as well as using a brayer. I used to think that your fingers could only detect down to 0.001" or so, but I now have no doubt they are far more sensitive than that. While a brayer will pick up much of any grit or dirt on the plate, there's nothing like your fingers to discover every last little fleck that can screw up a marking pass.

It also never ceases to amaze me how well you can FEEL a hand scraper hitting the high spots in an individual scrape. The tactile feedback lining up with the blue spots seen by your eyes is incredibly satisfying for some reason.

The absurdity also appeals to me: scraping is all about precision, and cleanliness is incredibly important: the tiniest little fleck of dirt will totally destroy a reading. Yet it's an incredibly messy process that leaves metal scrapings and ink all over the place, and leaves you filthy head to toe!
--
Rex
 

benmychree

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#9
One of the things that appeals to me about scraping is just how messy, old-school, and ... tactile the process is. It appeals to my finger-painting inner child. :)

I'm becoming a fan of spreading the marking media with my fingers as well as using a brayer. I used to think that your fingers could only detect down to 0.001" or so, but I now have no doubt they are far more sensitive than that. While a brayer will pick up much of any grit or dirt on the plate, there's nothing like your fingers to discover every last little fleck that can screw up a marking pass.

It also never ceases to amaze me how well you can FEEL a hand scraper hitting the high spots in an individual scrape. The tactile feedback lining up with the blue spots seen by your eyes is incredibly satisfying for some reason.

The absurdity also appeals to me: scraping is all about precision, and cleanliness is incredibly important: the tiniest little fleck of dirt will totally destroy a reading. Yet it's an incredibly messy process that leaves metal scrapings and ink all over the place, and leaves you filthy head to toe!
--
Rex
Which classes with Rich did you attend in the Bay Area? I did the one in Richmond and the one in Oakland at the blacksmith shop. Yes, there is good reason to spread out the medium with the fingers to detect grit; a brayer is OK to get on the plate, but it should be spread with the fingers, The only thing I did not like to see in the video was that he left the top off his medium container all the while he was scraping and cleaning up, risking getting gritty stuff in it.
 

Rex Walters

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#10
I took Richard's class in Georgia at Keith Rucker's shop, not here where I live in the Bay Area. I travel a lot for work so it wasn't too crazy to go that far.

Cheers,
--
Rex
 

benmychree

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#11
I took Richard's class in Georgia at Keith Rucker's shop, not here where I live in the Bay Area. I travel a lot for work so it wasn't too crazy to go that far.

Cheers,
--
Rex
I was fortunate that one of my friends promoted and arranged the venue for the classes here, and I was invited to provide some equipment and tools that Rich did not have to bring with him, for that I was "comped" the class (no cost to me). It was a pleasure to work with Rich, hope to do it again some time if we can lure him out here again; I thought it might happen this spring, but it was not to be.
 

george wilson

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#12
He seems to let the Biax "drop off" of the edges. That might create a convex surface on the straight edge. I haven't watched the whole video. Maybe he corrects that later?
 

4gsr

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#14
Before Rich gave me the leftover marking pigments after one of the classes I attended, I used red lead in machine oil; the shop where I worked was using it for lubricating high stress bolts on bridge hinges, I managed to divert some dry red lead and did the oil mixture and as advised in the Machine Tool Reconditioning book, I put it up in cardboard snuff boxes; in this way, the excess oil is absorbed, and when you want to use it, you just drop a drop or so of lube oil in and mix it around with a finger, and apply it with the very same digit and spread it out with the other fingers included; I do appreciate that the stuff that he gave me is much easier to clean up than red lead or Prussian blue.
In my earlier years in scraping, I was taught to use red lead mixed with a little "Tap Magic". We used the palm of our hands to wipe the surface with after applying. I recall Richard doing this in class too. I think I lost a few brain cells from all of the use of red lead I used back then, too.
 

benmychree

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#15
He seems to let the Biax "drop off" of the edges. That might create a convex surface on the straight edge. I haven't watched the whole video. Maybe he corrects that later?
He does exhibit very good control of the scraper, but I take issue with the way he starts at a corner; it is all too easy to catch the scraper blade on the vertical surface of the corner, and I saw him do it several times in the video; I start back from the corner, then come back from the opposite side and backtrack to the corner without the problem happening; I do not see evidence that he is rolling the corners over.
 

4gsr

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#16
Starting at the corner is one way to catch the corner and strip out the gear in the Biax power scraper. Especially if you have one of the old blue one's as I have.
 

benmychree

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#17
Starting at the corner is one way to catch the corner and strip out the gear in the Biax power scraper. Especially if you have one of the old blue one's as I have.
Thanks for elaborating on the consequences of catching on the corner; it also can chip or break the cutters. My Biax is the variable speed type that an elderly frien bought when he did not have the strength to hand scrape anymore; he also bought the flaker; after he passed, his sons generously gave them to me, knowing my relationship with him; he could be pretty ornery, especially with his sons, and I tolerated him and liked him for his obstinacy; he was a real character! RIP, Lyman Hawks.
 

benmychree

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#19
He at least seemed to get good results at the end!:)
Yes, but the result did fall short of the 40 points that he was after initially; he pronounced it finished at an estimated 30 points, which is, I suppose about as good as possible to achieve without picking off individual points of bearing as Richard King does by "dive bombing them".
 

george wilson

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#20
I think 30 points would be o.k. for this purpose. The points will soon wear anyway,rubbing them on cast iron.
 

C-Bag

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#21
Thanks so much Bob for posting this and bringing Wes to my attention. I love his get 'er done methods and subscribed to his channel. His approach to scraping by hand and power is just what I needed. And the tips like using mortar pigment are priceless. Way easier to find than Canode and way cheaper and arguably better as it doesn't mix like Canode. I also love his no nonsense delivery with tons of great inside tips with less wasted time. This is how somebody who does this for a living would do it where time is $$. I'm going through all his vids and I hope he keeps on.
 

kopeck

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#22
This is all pretty fascinating to me.

My Uncle used to scrape for Pratt & Whitney (the engine company, not the tool company). He was a tool setup and repair man, he's told me a handful of stories about things they had to do to make machines work. The scraping part I always thought was interesting but I never knew how much of an art, or almost a lost art it's become. Now I feel like bugging him to teach me. He did offer to try and scrape in the ways on my Craftsman/Atlas lathe. He said he could do a "surface cut" that really wouldn't change anything but would hold oil much better then the ground surface. To really modify the ways we would need a surface plate which I don't have. That and we're talking about a 6" lathe. :)

It's interesting the comments on technique. He told me once that he scraped with a couple of older guys early on and they each had their own techniques. He said it's a pretty physical job and you need to do what works best for you to be consistent and not wear your self out. Some of the jobs these jobs would take weeks. Now he's the old guy. :)

K
 

C-Bag

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#23
You are very lucky to have a family member you can learn from. Especially one that worked at such an elite place as P&W. You would learn so much in just doing a surface cut and would not believe the difference after it was done. It seems counter intuitive but the problem with two slick surfaces causing stiction makes it tough to do small adjustments in use. This is eliminated by doing that surface cut. Personally I love the amount of stories this would bring back from working with him. It is close to a lost art and you learn more from somebody who had to do it day in day out in a production setting than as "art" IMHO.
 

Bob Korves

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#24
This is all pretty fascinating to me.

My Uncle used to scrape for Pratt & Whitney (the engine company, not the tool company). He was a tool setup and repair man, he's told me a handful of stories about things they had to do to make machines work. The scraping part I always thought was interesting but I never knew how much of an art, or almost a lost art it's become. Now I feel like bugging him to teach me. He did offer to try and scrape in the ways on my Craftsman/Atlas lathe. He said he could do a "surface cut" that really wouldn't change anything but would hold oil much better then the ground surface. To really modify the ways we would need a surface plate which I don't have. That and we're talking about a 6" lathe. :)

It's interesting the comments on technique. He told me once that he scraped with a couple of older guys early on and they each had their own techniques. He said it's a pretty physical job and you need to do what works best for you to be consistent and not wear your self out. Some of the jobs these jobs would take weeks. Now he's the old guy. :)

K
A 6 foot plus surface plate is not needed to scrape in that lathe. Cast iron straightedges are used for the bed ways. Start with Connelly's book (and your uncle):
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/connelly-on-machine-tool-reconditioning.41802/
 

killswitch505

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#25
Pretty interesting..... I can get my head around how they can map the tool on the surface plate but how do map the ways on the machine?
 

Bob Korves

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#26
Pretty interesting..... I can get my head around how they can map the tool on the surface plate but how do map the ways on the machine?
Read the Connelly book linked in the post above yours and learn. It is only about 500 pages and is considered the bible of machine tool reconditioning. It is too much to cover adequately in a paragraph on this forum, and even the book is just a primer. There is also training available to learn the needed skills:
http://www.handscraping.com/

Edit: Misconceptions of how machines are rehabbed by scraping abound, don't believe everything you hear on forums...
 

kopeck

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#27
A 6 foot plus surface plate is not needed to scrape in that lathe. Cast iron straightedges are used for the bed ways. Start with Connelly's book (and your uncle):
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/connelly-on-machine-tool-reconditioning.41802/
I know, but the bed on my lathe is very small. He said a straight edge and a surface gauge would be good enough. I think he said it's easier to work from a surface plate, at least in the learning stages.

I know he used lasers a lot at Pratt & Whitney. Many of those machines were massive.

K
 

Bob Korves

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#28
I know, but the bed on my lathe is very small. He said a straight edge and a surface gauge would be good enough. I think he said it's easier to work from a surface plate, at least in the learning stages.

I know he used lasers a lot at Pratt & Whitney. Many of those machines were massive.

K
Good advice, he knows what he is talking about...
 

ddickey

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#29
Read the Connelly book linked in the post above yours and learn. It is only about 500 pages and is considered the bible of machine tool reconditioning. It is too much to cover adequately in a paragraph on this forum, and even the book is just a primer. There is also training available to learn the needed skills:
http://www.handscraping.com/

Edit: Misconceptions of how machines are rehabbed by scraping abound, don't believe everything you hear on forums...
You know I sent them a message about classes but I never got a response. I'd like to find a rebuilding shop around here that wants to teach someone in return for free labor. I'd jump all over that.
 

killswitch505

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#30
Read the Connelly book linked in the post above yours and learn. It is only about 500 pages and is considered the bible of machine tool reconditioning. It is too much to cover adequately in a paragraph on this forum, and even the book is just a primer. There is also training available to learn the needed skills:
http://www.handscraping.com/

Edit: Misconceptions of how machines are rehabbed by scraping abound, don't believe everything you hear on forums...
I'll chick it out this weekend!!
 
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