• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.
  • PLEASE: Read the FORUM RULES BEFORE registering!

4

New to me: Craftsman 101.27440 lathe.

3
Like what you see?
Click here to donate to this forum and upgrade your account!
10

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#32
Not really looking for information on the motor. The motor has all the information on the name plate. What I am looking for is to see if there is any information on the internet about the motor. You would think in this day and age with the world wide web/internet. I would be able to find some sort of information about the motor I have.

But I have looked using International Metal Products (which is the name on the top of the name plate), then, Delco Products Div of General Motors Co. Adding the model number (A-9212), Serial number (D-56), Type (S P), then there is a (P: code), 6.1 amps, 1/3 HP, RPM 1725.

I just wanted to get a little more information about the motor and what it is used for. And being that it is made by one of the above manufacturers. I would have thought that there is at least some information about it on the internet. Or that maybe someone here might know something about this old motor.

I'm assuming that it was made back in the 40's or 50's. Because there is no information about a company called International Metal Products, except for a company that makes products specializing in precision metal stamping.
 

Ulma Doctor

Infinitely Curious
Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
4,296
Likes
3,495
#33
it was most likely produced for Delco under license.
1/3 hp general purpose motors are commonly used in fans, pumps, and conveyors.
look for oiling holes, that may be indicative of age too
a lot of early motors had oilers with spring loaded caps
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#34
I'll have to take some pictures of it so you can get a better idea of what I am talking about. But the motor does have a couple of holes on each side that look like they could be for oiling? For now I'm going to call it the mystery motor from hell. Because I can't find any information on it and right now it looks like hell. LoL

I took it off the mounting bracket, so I can clean it up a bit. But that is the kind of information I'm looking for, the oilers if that is what they are. Wiring is another issue I would like to know about. It is currently wired, but I need to replace the wiring because it is so old that it's starting to come apart. And I want to find out if I can wire it up with a forward and reverse switch.

With no information to go by, I don't know to mess anything up. And I really want to take it apart and check out just how dirty it is inside.
 

Ulma Doctor

Infinitely Curious
Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
4,296
Likes
3,495
#35
another indication of age is the insulation on the wires.
if it has what appears to be cloth insulation, there is not much you can do with the motor- it poses an electrical and fire hazzard
if the wiring is more modern, you may be able to replace sections up to the windings- but you may want to inspect the varnish on the windings and wiring
if it is brittle and coming off, that is another indication of a faulty motor.
if you can take a picture or 2 of the beast as it is wired, we may be able to wire up a directional control circuit for the motor.

if the motor is under power now you could run it without a belt and check performance by a quick plug in.

motors are not rocket science to disassemble.
discharge start/run capacitors, if equipped
remove the pulley from the shaft
mark the endcaps in relation to the center winding housing
remove the long endcap bolts
gently tap the endcaps off, being careful to be gentle on any wiring encountered
the rotor can then be removed from the winding housing
inspect and reverse operation to reassemble
 
Last edited:

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#36
Thank you Ulma Doctor / Mike,

You have been very helpful. I'm going to take my time and go over everything with this motor. Like I said before, it runs fine (nice and quiet) but I want to clean it up a bit. Before I put it back on the lathe because I am already working on cleaning up the lathe and I might as well clean it while I'm at it.

Funny thing is the motor for my Atlas horizontal milling machine. It has a Craftsman motor on it and I bought both of them from the same person who said that these machines came from a guy who was into gunsmithing.
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#37
Hello Mike,

Well, last night I decided to take apart the motor so I can start to clean it. I tried to blow it out with my air compressor, but that really didn't do anything. The inside of the motor is covered in old grease and saw dust and blowing in out just isn't going to do the job.

You are right about the motor having a couple of places to oil the bearings. There are 2 holes on the end caps (1each) that you can put oil in. And when I looked inside the end caps you can see what looks like felt that helps to distribute the oil over the bearings. And the bearings are not bearings but what look to be Oilite bushings in the end caps. Also, the motor is not a capacitor start motor, if that makes any difference?

Anyway, last night I started to clean up the end caps with mineral spirits. That worked pretty good for them, but how I want to clean the stator and windings. I'm not sure what kind of damage might result from using mineral spirits on the stator and the windings? I watched a couple of videos on YouTube about people rebuilding AC motors. But they don't show how they cleaned them before putting them back together.

Like I said before, I don't know much about these motors. And I don't want to do any damage to it by cleaning it up before I put it back on the lathe.

So what are your thoughts on how I should go about cleaning the motor?
 

wa5cab

Downloads Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter-Premium Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
3,760
Likes
721
#39
Steve,

Mineral spirits, Varsol, Stoddard Solvent, etc. wont hurt the coils or armature. I'd wear surgical gloves, though, as it will dry your skin out by leaching the oils out of it. I would also make a sketch showing how it was connected and then remove the external wiring. Personally, being familiar with the insides of motors, I would remove the pulley and disassemble the motor. And probably replace the bearings or bushings, whichever it has. But if you've never had one apart, you might not want to make this one your maiden voyage. :tranquility:
 

Ulma Doctor

Infinitely Curious
Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
4,296
Likes
3,495
#40
Hello Mike,
You are right about the motor having a couple of places to oil the bearings. There are 2 holes on the end caps (1each) that you can put oil in. And when I looked inside the end caps you can see what looks like felt that helps to distribute the oil over the bearings. And the bearings are not bearings but what look to be Oilite bushings in the end caps. Also, the motor is not a capacitor start motor, if that makes any difference?
Like I said before, I don't know much about these motors. And I don't want to do any damage to it by cleaning it up before I put it back on the lathe.
So what are your thoughts on how I should go about cleaning the motor?
SAE 20 wt oil is recommended for the motor.
it was common for old motors to have bushings instead of roller bearings until the 50's
the capacitor start would include another assembly internal to the motor, a centrifugal start switch.
but since your motor is not equipped, that will mean a simpler disassemble for you!

turpentine, mineral spirits, kerosene, can be used to clean the motor and parts
use caution all 3 are flammable
you may wish to do the cleaning phase outdoors or in a very well ventilated space
use compressed air to dry thoroughly before reassembly
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#41
Thank you Robert and Mike for getting back to me.

One of the things I noticed about this motor is. That the armature has what looks to be some sort of spring on the shaft. It looks like this spring has some sort of weight that when the motor turns. The weight moves outwards and when the motor slows down the spring push's the weight back down. But for the life of me I have know idea what it does? Maybe for balance?

And yes, last night I used some mineral spirits to clean up the end caps and the armature and it worked fantastic. I waited on the stator and windings until I heard back from you guys about the cleaning with mineral spirits. But it sounds like mineral spirits will work fine and not damage anything. So tonight I'll get the stator and windings nice and clean.

After that I think I am pretty much done with the motor. I already painted the motor mount and the clamps that hold the motor to the mount. I just need to get some new wire before I put everything back together. The wire that was on the motor is wasted and needed to be replaced anyway. So I might have to buy a heavy gauge extension cord and sacrifice it to the motor. LoL

I want to thank both of you guys for all your help. I would have never got this far without the help of good people like you!!!

Hey Mike, now that I think about it. I wonder if the spring with the weight on it is what you are talking about? With the centrifugal start switch for a capacitor start?
 
Last edited:

Ulma Doctor

Infinitely Curious
Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
4,296
Likes
3,495
#42
the weight and the assembly you are referring to may just be the start winding switch.
the weights act on centrifugal force to open the switch when it is somewhere over 3/4 of rated motor speed
when the switch opens, the start windings drop out of the motor's run circuit.
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#43
I knew you would know what that spring and weight were for!!! LoL

This is one of the reasons I would like to know more about this motor. But as you can see in the picture above of the motor name plate. You can barely read what the heck it says. But from what you are saying the motor could be as old as the early 50's or maybe older?
 

Glenn Brooks

H-M Supporter - Premium Member
H-M Supporter-Premium Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
651
Likes
664
#44
Regarding your motor - it seems to be quite old - from the 1940's or 50's perhaps. I wonder if it is indeed a replacement motor. Usually metal lathe motors are designed with completely enclosed cases - to keep chips from getting inside the works and litterly cutting the internal wiring to shreds. This motor has enuf holes in the case to admit a whirlwind. Clearly for ventilation. I wonder, did you find a lot of chips and scarf when you cracked the case?

Glenn
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#45
Hello Glenn,

Actually I didn't find much for chips in the motor when I cracked it open. It was more like old grease and saw dust from the guy who owned it before me. I have looked over everything inside the motor and it looks pretty good. Just dirty from not being maintained and cleaned. The motor ran fine when I bought the lathe (nice and smooth) so I figured I could still use it.

Glenn, looking at your signature. It looks like you have quite a few machines in your shop.
 

Ulma Doctor

Infinitely Curious
Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
4,296
Likes
3,495
#46
+1 on what Glenn said!
the old motors were not the model of efficiency as we know it today.
they were made with different goals in mind, but were well made nonetheless.
they were made for longevity.
part of the longevity was the reduction of the winding temperatures, by perforating the motor case.
unfortunately, this creates it's own hazards- namely the introduction of swarf into the motor
bad things can happen brother when that occurs.
if you are gonna use the motor, you might want to devise a shield that stands off the motor 1/2" or more that allows for air but not swarf!!!
screen door size mesh screen and cable ties or hose clamps may be helpful
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#47
I'll take some more pictures tonight of the motor. So you can see what the inside looks like before I put it back together. Maybe we can get a better understanding of what I am dealing with?

And about the motor, I don't know where the guy who I bought the mill and lathe from got the motor for the lathe. Both were used by a old gunsmith guy who died and handed them down to the son, and the son didn't want them.

The Atlas horizontal milling machine I have. The motor on it is a more modern Craftsman with capacitor start.

Oh yeah almost forgot to mention. I have watched a couple of videos about AC motors on YouTube. Where people use a volt meter to measure the resistance of the motor. From my understanding of the videos, the less resistance the better. Like 8 ohms or less. So that is something I want to do when I get it back together.
 
Last edited:

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#49
Hey Mike,

I like the idea of using something to prevent future swarf from getting inside the motor housing. Definitely going to make something like your idea with what I have laying around.
 

Glenn Brooks

H-M Supporter - Premium Member
H-M Supporter-Premium Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
651
Likes
664
#50
Sounds like the original owner used the lathe a lot for wood working. Even South Bend marketed their '20's lathes as dual purpose wood and metal machines.

You could easily wrap a solid sheet of thin sheet metal - even tin foil around the motor - with some 1" or 2" standoffs like giant lagging on steam engine boilers, to keep out unwanted chips. Then set up a small low voltage computer fan to carry away any heat residue. Keeping the motor cool and chip free.

BTW. A sure fire way to tell if the motor has any service life left is to inspect the armature. If the grooves on the armature are worn to near smooth the motor is shot - won't last long, as the armature soon won't be able to generate the necessary electric field to function properly. At least this is what I've been told. (I am no professional electrician, by any stretch.) but this simple inspection seems to be pretty valid for the old motors I've had go bad. Might be something to consider.

Glenn
 

wa5cab

Downloads Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter-Premium Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
3,760
Likes
721
#51
Yes, you very definitely do not want metal chips or dust getting into anything electrical. Either immediately or eventually, it will definitely let the magic smoke out.

A voltmeter is only useful for measuring or indicating the presence of voltage. The instrument used for measuring resistance and indicating continuity is called an ohmmeter. And an electrical instrument for measuring current is called an ammeter. And there are a bzillion types of each.

Whether or not less (resistance) is better or not "just depends". If you know, for example, that one of the run windings should have a resistance of 8 ohms, and you only measure 4, or measure essentially 0, that is very definitely NOT good. On the other hand, if you had say a 1/2 HP and a 1 HP motor and measured the DC resistance of one of the start windings in each, you would certainly expect to get a lower reading from the 1HP motor. But on the other hand, if you got a reading of 0 ohms in either motor, that is very definitely NOT good.
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#52
Okay guys,

I promise you some pictures of the motor before I paint it and put it back together. I was able to get the stator and windings as clean as I could with mineral spirits and a good scrubbing. May not look the best but that is as far as I am going to go with cleaning.

Now you can see what I have going on this motor.
1014170139.jpg 1014170139a.jpg 1014170141.jpg 1014170141a.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#53
And if you see double imagines of the pictures. I don't know why that happened?

But now you can see what the motor looks like. On the armature you can see that spring and weight I was talking about. And speaking of the armature, Glenn you said something about if is smooth and with no grooves left on it. That is is pretty much wasted, well you can clearly see that it is smooth.

So I guess at this point. The only thing to do is paint it and put it back together. See how well it works for now until I can get a new motor. I was really hoping that I could use this motor, just because of the uniqueness of it. But from what Glenn is saying about the armature having no grooves (and it is smooth) then it probably is wasted.
 
Last edited:

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#54
Yes, you very definitely do not want metal chips or dust getting into anything electrical. Either immediately or eventually, it will definitely let the magic smoke out.

A voltmeter is only useful for measuring or indicating the presence of voltage. The instrument used for measuring resistance and indicating continuity is called an ohmmeter. And an electrical instrument for measuring current is called an ammeter. And there are a bzillion types of each.

Whether or not less (resistance) is better or not "just depends". If you know, for example, that one of the run windings should have a resistance of 8 ohms, and you only measure 4, or measure essentially 0, that is very definitely NOT good. On the other hand, if you had say a 1/2 HP and a 1 HP motor and measured the DC resistance of one of the start windings in each, you would certainly expect to get a lower reading from the 1HP motor. But on the other hand, if you got a reading of 0 ohms in either motor, that is very definitely NOT good.

Yes Robert, that is what I meant to say. A volt ohm meter to measure the resistance of the motor. But I'll have to do that after I put it back together (something I should have done before I took it apart) to see if it worth all the trouble I put into it.
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#56
Well,

Not sure what happened to this thread with all the help I was getting. But tonight is the night that I put the motor back together. I was wondering if Mike or Glenn ever saw the pictures above with the armature and it being smooth. I'm not sure if it was ever smooth in the first place, because it doesn't look like it ever had grooves in it. Unless they are talking about the windings, that have grooves on the inside? Guess I'll never know until one of them decides to respond back to this thread. But if they are talking about the grooves in the windings, they are nice and clean and after a good cleaning they look like new.

Anyway, tomorrow I will send some pictures of the motor when it is assembled. Still need to get a sacrificial extension cord and wire it up to the motor to see if it will run like it used to.

Thanks again for everyone's help.
 

wa5cab

Downloads Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter-Premium Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
3,760
Likes
721
#57
I think maybe that the new software version that was installed over the weekend may have decreased participation a bit. For one thing, we've discovered that anyone using any of the later versions of IE can start a thread but can't reply to it or any other thread. Same is apparently true about Conversations. Or they could all just be off doing something else.

Anyway, I'm not an electrician, either. I'm an electrical and electronics engineer. And I have no idea what these grooves are that were mentioned earlier. In any case, with single phase AC motors other than Universal (AC/DC), the things that you look for are general condition of the housing or main body of the motor, condition of the end bells, condition of the windings and the wire coming out of them, general condition of the armature, condition of the bearing journals on both ends of the armature, condition of the bearings, whether they are sleeve, ball or roller, and if so equipped, condition of the centrifugal switch.

The photographs aren't large or close-up enough for me to be able to say that everything appears OK. But I don't see anything obviously wrong. So run an electricial leakage test between the two or three stater windings and the housing. Best way to do this is with a Megohmmeter or Megger. But you aren't likely to have one of those. So use an ohmmeter on its highest scale. Connect one lead to the housing. In turn, connect the other lead to each of the wires coming out of the stater windings. The ammeter meter needle shouldn't move and stay moved.

If you are going to repaint the motor, do it now.

If that's all OK, reassemble the motor and if possible, test run it before putting it back on the lathe.
 

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#58
Hey Robert,

The motor is cleaned up and painted. I put it back together last night and now all I need is the sacrificial extension cord. Once I get that then I will put a switch on and give it a bench test before I go putting back on the lathe.

Oh yeah almost forgot to ask you. Now that I have the lathe stand welded up. And I know this is a personal preference type of thing. But what color should I paint the lathe stand? Right now I have just about everything painted dark grey gloss or smoke gray gloss. But I want to change it up a bit with the stand, so I'm thinking maybe dark blue gloss?
 
Last edited:

wa5cab

Downloads Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter-Premium Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
3,760
Likes
721
#59
Well, to paraphrase Henry Ford, people may paint their machines any color that they like, so long as it's gray. ;) Seriously, I've never lived with any equipment that wasn't either black, gray or green. So I don't know how that combination would "wear".
 
Last edited:

Orangecrush

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
68
Likes
43
#60
Well, I have plenty of gray paint. So I might as well paint it gray like the rest of the lathe. When I rebuilt the Atlas horizontal mill. I ended up painting the stand with truck bed liner paint in black. Still not really sure if I like that or not yet. But I don't want to go that route with the lathe stand. And thought that maybe doing something different might be cool. And I agree with you about the machines they were either green or gray. In fact the walls of the machine shop that I worked in were green on the bottom and white about 4 feet up. And the manager of the shop would wear puke green pants with a white shirt. Back then most of us were in our 20's and would do all kinds of stupid stuff and the manager would blend in with the walls. Next thing you know someone is doing something they shouldn't and the manager would catch them in the act. Busted!!! LoL

Oh yeah, that spring thingy on the armature I was wondering about. Apparently it rides against the metal plate on the end piece and it has a taper on it. When the spring gets far enough up on the tapered metal plate, I guess it does something I'm not quite sure about yet?
 
Last edited:
6
5 7