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New Member From Langley Bc Ready To Start Lathe & Mill Shopping

Discussion in 'PRECISION-MATTHEWS' started by Kiwi Canuck, Oct 28, 2016.

  1. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for the additional info, all good points which I will follow.

    Standard outlets are wired with 14 AWG which is 15 amps max load, I need a 20 Amp 120 outlet on the same wall so will run it at the same time as the 220V.

    I will run (1) 120V 20 Amp circuit using 12 AWG, (2) 220V 30 Amp circuits using 10AWG.

    Hopefully I can fit it all in a 3/4" conduit with (2) 90's, if not it'll need to be 1".

    I will be able to get up the wall into ceiling space and then get only about 10' across as we have a finished space above garage and no access, then will dropout below ceiling and then surface the rest of the way.

    Cheers,
     
  2. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You're welcome. Some other links
    This link page shows the taper attachment. Unfortunately what they (continue to) gloss over is the different cross slide / lead screw assembly that is also required. So as mentioned, if that's on the wish list, I believe you have to spec that up front. Otherwise tapers are confined to the limits of your compound or some tailstock offset method.
    http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=116&ID=12037

    You are close to KBC Delta. I haven't been to their store myself. I feel like I know them because brown parcels with their logo are on my porch quite often :) Looks like they are a King distributer. At least if they have some models of interest on the floor maybe you can get up close & personal with the machine. That stand looks much better than my era & I guess that must be a brake mechanism integrated into the base?
    http://www.kbctools.ca/products/MACHINERY/LATHES/MANUAL LATHES/9056.aspx
     
    brino likes this.
  3. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Jerry thanks for your response, I think I have read some of your posts on here so thanks for those as well.

    The floor in both the garage and workshop are both very smoothly finished (with radiant heat installed so no drilling unless I'm willing to pay for scanning) so hopefully I can get them positioned with one other helper.

    Pretty sure the PM 935 will be what I order, just going to crunch the numbers and see if I go 1340GT or 1236.

    By the way I love the PM Blue and White

    David
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  4. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    vs. about 25 seconds for a screw-on chuck? I don't get it. I don't mean to intrude on the conversation, but what's the perceived advantage of a cam-lock chuck? Repeatability maybe? Teach me. Please and thanks!

    Actually I consider it invaluable research. You may not even realize it until _after_ you have bought, setup and are using your new machine exactly the nuanced usefulness of some features. A "deep think" about them upfront might also lead you there.

    -brino
     
  5. dieselshadow

    dieselshadow United States Do you smell something? H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'm new to this also, but a bolt-on or screw-on chuck vs a cam lock is a no-brainer to me. A cam lock is way quicker and easier. Bolts are easy, but there's absolutely no way you're changing out a bolt-on chuck in less than a minute. A cam lock? Easy money. Repeatability? Without question. A bolt-on or screw-on chuck? Perhaps, but not in that timeline.

    I'm no expert by any means. Just my $.000000002.
     
  6. Muskt

    Muskt United States Home Shop Tinkerer Active Member

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    When I owned the 9x20, it had the 39x4 threaded spindle. As with many of the "less expensive" machines, the fit of the registration flange was not as precise as it could have been. When I acquired a "real" 4 jaw and created my own adapter plate, I made it fit correctly. Yes, it required about the same time to either install or remove as a cam-lock. One serious drawback to the screw on spindle is that you cannot run the machine backwards, as some operators do.

    I think that the original context of this discussion revolves around the bolt-on arrangement of the smaller machines used by members of this forum (the PM machines).

    I believe that it was the 11x27 that has a non-standard mount, as well as very limited availability for other chucks. This statement is only a guess on my part. However, after using the threaded spindle for about 10 years, and the D-1 for 2, I can state that I definitely prefer the cam-lock.

    Hope this helps a bit.
    Jerry in Delaware
     
  7. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    A screw-on chuck is probably faster than a camlock, but....

    When I hit the foot brake (or have a VFD with regenerative breaking), the screw-on chuck unscrews (yes, I know, generally don't find a foot brake on a machine with a screw-on chuck).

    Also, some times I run the spindle in reverse because the compound works better for the angle of the cut. Not possible with a screw-on chuck.

    My statement was aimed more at the bolt on chucks, which takes longer than a cam lock. Additionally, cam-lock chucks are a standard size, so you can buy any brand. Most bolt-on chucks are not.
     
    almost retired and brino like this.
  8. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    No need to wonder... yes, it will fit in 3/4" conduit.I came up with 40% fill (this is assuming you are using THHN). Note that 6 current carrying conductors require you derate to 80%, but since that is based on the 90C limits, you are still good with your planned wire size. YMMV, since Canada has sometimes stricter codes.

    Conduit_Calculator_zpsvmhc0ste.png

    http://www.electrician2.com/calculators/rf_calculator.html

    Y
    ou could also make your life easier, and surface mount a small breaker panel near where your tools are, and just run 8AWG to that panel. Easy to turn power on to the machines. Wish I thought of that before I ran 10AWG for each circuit 75' across my garage in the attic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
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  9. bobl

    bobl Canada Active Member Active Member

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    Take a look at sharp industries I have a 13-40 made in Taiwan had for about 15 years no problems good all round machine
    Don't forget to also look at used I also restored a h10 southbend and a Rockwell mill and modified to a turret mill
    We are neighbors I'm in Mission


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
     
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  10. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks Guys!
    I missed the fact that the comparison was cam-lock vs. bolt-on (ie. not screw-on).
    I am obviously NOT researching the discussed models as deeply as you are.
    I appreciate the responses.

    -brino
     
  11. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That calculator is pretty cool, I usually just cut a small section of pipe and stuff it with wires and use my eyetrometer to measure it, no inspection so the 40% fill is negotiable as we are only using low voltage at work but with 220 with high loads it's nice to be safe.

    Really like the idea of running a small sub panel over by the machines, that would be a nice set up.
    I'll check what wiring we have in stock and then decide, probably don't have 8 but good chance we have a few partial rolls of 10 and 12 left over from jobs, need to think about that.

    I went up in the ceiling today to see if I could feed a wire up over the suite and back down into one of the other hatches, no go they are all separated so it will require surface conduit for 65' or so.

    That will be a nice job for my oldest son as he has been working on one of our crews for the last year and is apparently really good at bending and installing pipe, not a complicated install but he can go in the attic as well and save me from getting hot and bothered up there.
    I'll stub down off a box in the attic and use a LB Pull connector on the ceiling rather than another box, it should look pretty discrete and then run across the ceiling.

    Got to go.
     
  12. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Sounds good. It never hurts to get the same info from different sources, including some you already know. I picked up my Aspencade from Shawn after my older Interstate tried to kill me.
     
  13. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    So that didn't work out how I was expecting, I was so full of hope after seeing the election results, the USA is going to collapse and I can buy my machines at 50 cents on the dollar or there abouts, instead we lost another 1/2 cent.

    Oh well.
     
  14. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I went over to see LKeithR yesterday on the way home from work, he has a machine shop 15 mins from my house, very nice man and I spent about 30 minutes getting a tour of his shop.

    I think the most value I got from visiting with him was the types of tooling I would need to purchase for the type of projects I have in mind.

    I will certainly drop by again sometime when I have more time once I get my machines.

    He also confirmed that go as big as I can upfront and suggested a 1440 lathe if I have room, he has a very HD 1340 lathe that weighs around 3000 lbs.

    Thanks for the intro, very much appreciated.

    On a side note, I did get an an email back from King Canada and they confirmed the King Industrial 1236 lathe is of Chinese Origin.

    Ramblings,

    I have been mulling over all the options in my mind, and I'm still having an issue with choosing which models I should go with. (still only Considering Precision Matthews Machines)

    I'm so confused I am having trouble trying determine what/where the resistance is.

    Need to sit with it a while longer I guess, not sure why I've got stuck on this as I normally make my choice, buy and deal with it.

    I am living the phrase "Paralysis by Analysis" and I better buy soon or I'm going to have to walk away and come back to this in a few weeks.

    I think I need to make that excel sheet I was going to make and add pricing as well and hopefully that will put some order to all the stuff floating around in my head.

    I'll also layout the machines sizes on cardboard or something so I can visualize the size in each work space.

    As I write this out I just realized that I have not fully committed to where these machines will live, so perhaps that's certainly compounding my choices.

    The three locations are;
    My Electronic Locksmith business in the city with access to 3 phase power, but 45 mins from my house, not good for personal tinkering or weekend hobby work.

    Home 3 car garage, have one bay dedicated to motorcycle parking (5) and workbench/workshop, need work to get 220V power setup and not a lot of room left for large machines, probably OK for smaller 120V machines.

    Home 40' x 40' workshop, has 220v power has lots of room, cons, tenants above so noise could be an issue at night, far from house, so not conducive to running out for 30 mins or so if it's raining and cold, minor issues but I have my wood saws over there and I will do things by hand in the garage rather than run over there unless I have to. Would need to move my whole workshop over there as I couldn't operate in 2 different spaces. (my wife would love having the 3 car garage all clean of clutter.)

    So one of the other issues, once I get location determined will be, will I actually use the machines after the novelty wears off and if so do I really need to spend $20K to find out, that's a hard one to know but it's definitely been on my mind.

    That's enough rambling for now,

    David
     
  15. MonkMan

    MonkMan United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    KC, it took me 13 months of back and forth to finally place my order. Much relieved! Now getting ready for December delivery.
     
  16. jbolt

    jbolt United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    If you are unsure if you will use the machines after a while I think you best chance of success is having them in the garage close at hand. There are countless times I will pop out into the garage to fix or fabricate something. Second would be your shop on your property (it sound like it is closer than your work?) When my construction business was at its largest I kept my woodworking equipment in a warehouse and the last thing I wanted to do was drive to the shop to use the equipment for a small home project. I made do with my portable tools in my truck.
     
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  17. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for all the responses, I really do appreciate it.

    I did get to look at jbolts postings and I am very appreciative of your write up on your 1440GT, thanks for adding another option I didn't know about, haha.

    The good news is I got to learn a lot about DRO's which I knew very little except they were a worthwhile addition, the videos on DRO Pros were very good.

    While in my shop today I was visualizing the layout and thought about moving or getting rid of a couple of safes that have been used as a dumping table for kids bike gear and stuff that doesn't have a proper place.

    I had a thought, I wonder if anyone has ever use safes as a stand for a lathe, I have 2 identical unused metal safes about 36" tall that weigh around 450lbs each, that could possibly used as the base for a lathe.

    Not sure how thick the outside plate steel is but probably minimum 3/8" or possibly 1/2" I'll take a look at that a bit closer and maybe drill a discrete exploratory hole.

    David
     
  18. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That's a cool idea! I have certainly NEVER heard of that, but I think it's a great idea. You may want the ability to level things up, but that can be done with spacers under legs.

    Note: a machine does not need to be level to be functional, but it's a great reference to compare things too.

    I bet they would make a great base, with no sandbags needed for extra mass for vibration damping.

    -brino
     
  19. Muskt

    Muskt United States Home Shop Tinkerer Active Member

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    To me, 36 is way too tall. I am 5 foot 8. I just measured my PM 12x36. The bottom of the lathe is 31.5--which includes my 2 inch square tubing base + the adjusters. I spend a lot of time on my toes trying to see over the QCTP to see where I am cutting. I would really like about 2-3 inches lower.

    Jerry in Delaware
     
  20. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hi Jerry, I'm 6' 2" so not crazy tall but not short either.

    Not sure I will use them just a thought that crossed my mind as QMT is making cast iron bases and charging $$$ for them and I have something here that may work.

    OK went and measured them, they are only 30" tall by 22" wide, with all the stuff stored on them (junk) I forgot they were that short.

    My work benches are 37 inches and 39 1/2", the 39 1/2" is the perfect height for me, but I mounted my big Yost vise on that bench, it's way to tall to work at comfortably so I know what you mean about getting on your tip toes to see what you're working on. BTW I have a 4" Record vise on the 37" bench and that works for me.

    What height is normal for a lathe and how do they measure it, to the center of the chuck?
    Edit, just looked up the PM1236, it shows 46" to spindle center, is this accurate?

    Are you using the PM1236 base with an add on or did you fab your own completely?

    David
     
  21. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    DRO on a mill is a must have, in my book.

    DRO on a lathe is a nice to have, but easy enough to do almost everything you need with a $30 magnet backed travel indicator. That being said, I am buying a DRO for my lathe for Christmas because she has been good to me. :D
     
  22. Muskt

    Muskt United States Home Shop Tinkerer Active Member

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    Fabbed an add-on out of 2x2 square tubing. The first pic is of the base--Disregard the 4 extra holes on the left side (senior moment)--Should only have the 2 in the center like the right side.

    The other pic is the lathe in its new home (before all the "stuff" is piled around). The 31.5 inch measurement is to the bottom of the drip pan which is close
    enough to the bottom of the lathe.

    I don't know about the spindle height, shop is locked up for the night.

    Base1.jpg Home.jpg
     
  23. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK thanks for the info, why did you build the base, was it too short or what??

    BTW what size chuck is on your lathe, it looks bigger than standard 6"?
     
  24. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I need all the help I can get so I'll definitely will get the DRO on the mill and hopefully the lathe as well.
     
  25. Muskt

    Muskt United States Home Shop Tinkerer Active Member

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    I wanted to be able to "level" it, & saw a similar base by another member. It is OK, I just wish it wasn't quite so tall.
    The chuck is the factory 4-jaw.

    Jerry in Delaware
     
  26. Chipper5783

    Chipper5783 Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    An obvious solution is that you need to get 3 lathes, one for each location.

    Will you continue to use the machines? Yes. Machining will take over your life, all other hobbies will cease to have any relevance. Within 6 months, you will find that some machining will be required for any project you undertake - no matter how distant it is from actual metal working and you will wonder how you survived as long as you have without easy access to machine tools.

    I bought my 15" lathe from Modern Tool in Burnaby in 1983. I was green as grass but had $$ burning a hole in my pocket (and they helped big time with that). Sure I cried once on the price, but many times as I look back - no regrets, that 15" lathe has been a good machine for me. I have since purchased 5 more primary machines and all put together those 5 come to what I paid for that first machine (sort of like dollar cost averaging). I think your assessment of MT really catering to commercial clients is probably correct. I generally have a low expectation of getting customer service, so the onus is on me to get what I want. At one time I thought it would become a business, but no - machining has been a great hobby for me for many years.

    After many years of various compromise arrangements, I finally built the shop. With our yard & house, it was pretty easy to add onto the existing garage. I really like that the shop is attached and I can be working on some project in less than a minute and miserable weather is no issue (in fact it is almost an invitation to light the wood stove, get that radiant heat soaking into my bones).

    Be sure to let us know what you finally settle on.

    Regards, David
     
  27. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hey David, great reply, I wouldn't be surprised if I end up buying a set for the business and another for home, it has crossed my mind. But first I need to make my first purchase and get that under my belt.

    I'm really torn on location, my wife has said as long as it doesn't take away from her parking in the middle bay (which probably means being able to open her car door to get out) I can put them in the house garage.

    I may get the PM 1236/PM932 package first and then once up to speed move them to the business and get the larger Taiwanese made machines for here.

    Got to choose soon as I've given myself until Nov 24th as my deadline.

    David.
     
  28. Muskt

    Muskt United States Home Shop Tinkerer Active Member

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    I measured my 12x36 today, & it is 47.5 at the spindle center. It sits on a 2 inch square tubing base with adjustable leveling feet under the base.
     
  29. Kiwi Canuck

    Kiwi Canuck Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for the info. pretty sure I'll also need to increase the height if I go with the stock cabinets.

    I felt like I had made my mind up on buying the PM1236/PM932 and then I met with my oldest son for lunch today.

    I mentioned I was looking at buying these machines and was tossing up between China or Taiwan made machines, I also asked him if he could help with some conduit work, he said no problem.

    He reminded me that I always buy quality (and preach quality) and why would I be considering less. Dang!! nothing like someone who knows you to remind you of your values.

    So I will review my thought process and see if I come back to those same machines or up the anti, the exchange rate is brutal at the moment (approx $1.38 CND to buy $1 US) so I'm definitely having a hard time justifying the PM1340GT/PM935 price tag.

    I finished my excel spreadsheet, it was actually a pretty good exercise, but took about 3-4 hrs to come up with a layout that made sense.

    I was able to add or delete options to evaluate pricing with different machines and different optional extras including DRO's and tooling.

    Quick question for the Canadians who have purchased machines from QMT and had them shipped to Canada, did you get hit with extra freight and what about brokerage and duty?

    How did you handle that, use a broker or clear it yourself.?

    Matt suggested drop shipping to Lynden, WA. and I go and pick them up and clear them myself, I would have to rent truck/trailer and lift equipment and would probably negate any savings.

    I'm thinking direct delivery to my door and I have a neighbor with a fork lift that maybe able to assist with unloading, hopefully eliminating the need to rent lifting equipment and also would feel more comfortable with the safety of having a proper machine to move the big mill especially. I will need to check with him and see if that's an option and if his forklift has the capacity I need.

    Any feedback on that would be appreciated.

    David
     
  30. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    If you do, I recommend you rent a drop deck trailer. Makes it much easier to get the machines off, because you can lower the trailer bed completely to the ground with the built in hydraulic lift. $85-110 per day from sunbelt rental.

    That makes it so you just run your pallet jack underneath the pallet and roll it off the trailer.... unless the $#%^& pallet is built out of 2x4 which your pallet jack won't fit into, so then you have to pick it up with a gantry crane so you can block up the pallet enough to get the pallet jack under, and it take 90 minutes to unload instead of the glorious 30 sec your brain said it would take...because you have to push everything in the garage up against the far wall to get room to put the trailer underneath the gantry crane...

    ... true story....

    PM935_zpsq43kwfdl.jpg
     

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