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New Clausing 6913 - Gear box engagement lever fixed!!!!

Discussion in 'CLAUSING-COLCHESTER & BANTAM' started by Dhector, Apr 27, 2017.

  1. Moshe

    Moshe United States Swarf Registered Member

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  2. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    IMG_20170430_195001901.jpg Hello again. I've spent the last 2 afternoons cleaning this thing up. Lot of work!!! Does anyone know what tool post this is? I have one broken attachment and it seems solid. Might try to replace the broken one.
     
  3. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    IMG_20170430_194947568.jpg Does anyone have experience with this gear box engagement assembly? I have had it in and out of the machine at least 30 times trying to make it work. It was loose when I got it(the bolts holding it to the gearbox were about to fall out and the box was out of oil, the cover fell off on to the trailer when I pulled out of his yard to. I got it to work, but it doesn't seem correct. The way it feels now is like the coil spring inside it is useless. I'm sure its in there for a reason. I just want it correct and I don't believe it is right now, although it works good. One part according to the parts diagram was in wrong. One other part inside the cover had signs of pliers on it to so I'm assuming he was having trouble with it as well. Thanks again!
     
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  4. scwhite

    scwhite United States Active Member Active Member

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    I don't know your machine gear box
    But you are doing right . Keep looking at drawings
    Parts brake downs . Asking questions until you are satisfied that it is working right just the way it should . Never give up or settle for oh well that's good enough
     
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  5. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I won't give up. Too stubborn I'm going to call clausing tomorrow and see what they say so I have my fingers crossed at the moment. Hopefully some food news from them.
     
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  6. chips&more

    chips&more United States Active User Active Member

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    Going by memory so bear with me. You pull on the knurled part of that handle to disengage the handle so you can turn/change the numbered dial in front. If you try and push down on that knurled handle assembly it will want to spring back up, more so at the bottom of its travel. This part is iffy memory. Just behind that handle is a safety ratchet mechanism so that in the event of a crash when feeding/threading, it spins. The lathe also has safety/soft pins in the right places. And the handle should be at more like 5 Oclock in the locked position. You have it at 12.
     
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  7. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That sounds correct. When you push the handle down, it raises a set of gears in the gearbox to engage the feed screw. The handle that pulls, disengages a pin that matches up to a notch in the housing it rotates on. allowing the internal gearset to rotate down and disengage the feed screw. It does have a ratcheting mechanism as well inside it(one way clutch type of set up) The handle will lock in the 5 oclock position, where its at now it is just disengaged at the time of the pic. The spring inside the mechanism doesn't seem to do anything(there is no tension on the handle from spring pressure) It SEEMS to me it needs to be assembled and maybe pre-tensioned while installing to make it all work correctly but I haven't been able to find the sequence or order. Its got me baffled.
     
  8. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    gear box engagment lever assy.jpg Her is the mechanism giving me trouble. It appears everything Is there. It just doesn't function correctly. Will post a pic of the gears it rotates to engage the feed screw shortly.


    PAGE 22 in the Clausing 6900 Series Lathes Manual
    It can be zoomed in enough to read from across the room!!!! Its a very large picture in the manual. The manual is at 15% of the original size so you can zoom in a long ways.


    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/clausing-6900-series-lathes-manual-pdf.1620/
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  9. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Untitled.jpg Circled in red it the gearset that is rotated upwards to engage the feed screw. The items circled in green do the rotating, although this shows only one gear at the right hand end of the gearset engagement lever. My machine has a 2 gears that mesh with both sets of teeth on the rotating gearset(Gear cradle)


    PAGE 22 in the Clausing 6900 Series Lathes Manual
    It can be zoomed in enough to read from across the room!!!! Its a very large picture in the manual. The manual is at 15% of the original size so you can zoom in a long ways.


    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/clausing-6900-series-lathes-manual-pdf.1620/
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  10. chips&more

    chips&more United States Active User Active Member

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    I understand that it can be challenging sometimes when somebody before you has “touched it”. It’s much easier to fix it when it’s factory original. It’s a good thing you have the parts breakdown docs. And you also have The Hobby Machinist for help. When you have a bit of time, start at it. And take pictures as you go. Be careful of that clock spring. It has a lot of stored energy as it sits. Don’t go and try to take it out. Just look at it. Check its ends and the rest of the spring. Be looking for a break(s) in the coil and or torn ends. Then check the rest of the parts in that assembly for problems or maybe missing stuff. Reference your parts doc as you go and don’t forget the pics and be safe….Good Luck, Dave.
     
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  11. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You got that right! The more I read the more ideas I get on it and how to repair it. I feel I know what to do, just haven't cracked the combination yet. I haven't had much time to mess with it recently. While another machinist was here looking at the lathe problem(or should I say one machinist was here and I was watching!) he mentioned a Bridgeport clone they were trying to sell, so I went and bought it too. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-msc-mill-to-me.58705/ What a weird month! Just got it unloaded in the shop this morning. Now I have a lot to figure out. Glad it doesn't have power to it yet or I'd be messing with 2 machines instead of one!!!!!!
     
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  12. chips&more

    chips&more United States Active User Active Member

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    I’m a toolaholic and can normally understand or relate. But what you have just done even makes my eyes roll!!!!
     
  13. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I got the gearbox engagement lever fixed. I would like to thank all that gave input and helped out with this. The feed screw functions correctly now!!!!!! 1.jpg The 2 pins in this picture I made from a Harley Davidson jackshaft gear bolt:) The cradle lock spring hook(the round part next to the lever and pins with has 2 holes in it) They were 1/8 in diameter but the pins were damaged and so were the holes so I drilled them to 9/64 I also drilled the cover holes as well.
    2.jpg
    3.jpg
    4.jpg Over riding clutch
    5.jpg This spring pin was missing and its what keeps the "gear cradle" from falling below the gear on the end of the engagement assembly(internal) and not allowing it to move the cradle) See pic 11 and 12(2) . Edit- It also has to be cut off a little to allow the cover to go on.
    6.jpg The spring I was having issues with.
    7.jpg Pic 6 is the start of winding the spring, move this 180 degrees at least(it will work at 180, I did mine 360 degres and it seems to be ok there to)
    8.jpg This is after rotating 180 degrees, go another 180 if you like.
    9.jpg While holding the TENSIONED spring in this location to install the cover.
    10.jpg Install the cover. Install the jam nut(I used a lock nut, not a nylok and I put it in my little 3950 and made it shorter(so the lock part of the nut gets to the threads on the shaft. Do not tighten it completely, it needs to be snug but allow everything to rotate freely.
    11.jpg Gear engagement inside the box. This pic shows how the cradle can fall down too far and the engagement assembly cant pick it back up. This was caused by the spring pin being gone. I am going to try and get a close up of the gear mesh and start another post.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  14. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    12 (2).jpg Gear mesh problem when cradle drops down too far.
     
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  15. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'm not guaranteeing this is absolutely 100 percent correct. I've called all over the country trying to find any info I can on this with no luck. Kudos to this forum cause I got more off of here and talking to a guy in Denver Colorado that works on lathes than anywhere else!!!!!
     
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  16. chips&more

    chips&more United States Active User Active Member

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    It was in jest, you got two machines in one month!
     
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  17. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I am shocked as well. First the lathe for cheap with some cool attachments, then the mill. Funny thing about it is it all happened like it was meant to be. The guy that passed, that owned the lathe, was actually the operator of that very mill at his old job. I've been looking for a mill but nothing out there really that we had come across till this. Obviously I needed large equipment to unload it and when I called the guy that I borrowed his front end loader from to unload the lathe, was 100 yards away using the loader and dropped it off. I used it and he needed it again across the road and picked it up. It seems like there was little effort on my part for this entire thing. Everything just went perfect in every aspect. I'm not used to that. Again I appreciate everyone's help on this machine. More cleaning and then its going to get used!!! Great forum and members!!!!
     
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  18. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Collet attachment Manufactured by Royal Prod.
    18 TPI
    I.D. 1.193 This measurement is on the "peaks" of the threads. I have nothing to measure the "valley" of the threads.
    Length of threads is 1.05 inches
    O.D. of tube1.363

    I found this collet table from a google search and this came up from practical machinist forum

    http://hardingeus.com/usr/pdf/collet/2348F.pdf

    This is confusing to me. A little help what I have here please. Do you need anymore measurements? I don't know how to measure the taper(sorry)

    Where should one buy a set of these if they wanted some. What I'd like to do if its even possible, is be able to do some small parts like I can on the 3950(I know its overkill, but I'd sell the 3950 and all the attachments if it would be possible and cost effective, not sure I need to own 2 lathes) Thanks again to everyone
     
  19. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    How certain are you that the thread pitch is 18 and not 20? I searched a several page table of collet dimensions that I have and found seven collets with 18 tpi threads. Two of them have an OD of around 3/4". The other five range from about 1-5/8" up to nearly 4".

    I still think that you should borrow a 5C collet from someone and see if it doesn't match up to the threads in your draw tube.

    One other dimension that you didn't give is the ID of the closer adapter that fits into the spindle taper. For 5C it will be about 1.255" or a hair less.
     
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  20. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I will look next time I get a chance. I was pretty sure 18 was correct but I'll verify. I'm not sure what the closer adapter is but I'll see what I can figure out. Thanks for the help and I'll look tomorrow.
     
  21. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK.

    The closer adapter usually looks somewhat like a short MT reducer sleeve but with a flange on the large end, and no drive tang. Inside fits the collet type that it was made for. Typically the bore from the small end to close to the large end is cylindrical and has a short anti-rotate peg inside near the small end that fits the keyway on the OD of the collet. At the large end is a short female taper typically between about 11 and 17 degrees each side.
     
  22. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Wow. 20 TPI for sure. Not sure how I screwed that up. 18 isn't even close. I tried to figure out the taper but I will have to find another way. I tried measurements from it and an online calculator but wasn't in the range you stated. It has the marking "C" on it and that's all. I'll see what I can do to figure out the taper. IMG_20170512_084948268.jpg
    IMG_20170512_083817277.jpg
     
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  23. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Well, never mind the taper. It turns out that none of the collet dimension listings that I have show the taper for the 5C. Which I am pretty sure is what you are going to find that your closer adapter and draw tube threads fit.

    The Back Bearing on a conventional type collet (meaning that it is single ended, not double ended like the European ER collets) is the ring adjacent to the threads that centers up the left end of the collet in the closer adapter. It is smaller than the large end of the taper but either a few thou larger or the same diameter as the majority of the collet. For 5C, several sources give it as 1.250" diameter. Tolerance and allowance are't given in any of the tables that I have but your finding that the straight bore is a nominal 1.250" would be correct for a 5C adapter. A couple of the sources give 1.468" as the diameter of the large end of the relaxed collet. When you slide a 5C collet into an adapter just until the collet taper touches the adapter taper, the large end is not quite flush with the right end of the adapter. So your 1.440" for the diameter of the large end of the taper in the adapter is probably close. Especially as it is nearly impossible to measure the ID of the large end of a taper with ordinary calipers.

    Anyway, all of your measurements to me indicate that your setup is for the 5C collets. As I wrote earlier, borrow a 5C collet and try it. Or take your draw tube and adapter to a machine shop and ask them to try it.
     
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  24. machPete99

    machPete99 United States Iron Registered Member

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    Those dimensions match the 5c collet adapter for my 5914 lathe. Its 5c on the inside, supposedly MT4.5 on the outside, although it seems that there are different definitions of MT4.5 out there, which may not fit the Calausing, so don't loose it!
     
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  25. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Could you send pics of your setup please? I have an idea in my head what its suppose to look like but I'm new to this and cant say I know for sure. I actually have two of those "Collars" like are in the picture.

    I just purchased a Bridgeport clone that came with collets. Anybody ever make an adapter to make Bridgeport collets work on a lathe drawbar(collet closer)? Maybe first project for me? Or first 40 projects, hehe! I did watch "MACHINE SHOP TIPS #152 Poor Man's Collet Attachment for Clausing Lathe tubalcain " Its what gave me the idea of an adapter. What do you think?
     
  26. machPete99

    machPete99 United States Iron Registered Member

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    I don't currently have the 5c collet closer setup on my lathe but I think the kit was originally made by Royal and looks like this (not mine, see second picture in post #1):

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...t-chuck-faceplates-royal-collet-closer-317528

    Attached is a picture of my setup, before I bought the lathe.

    I am missing the "nose protector" piece, have most of the rest. The bearing in the lever assembly on mine could use replacing, but looks like it might be something special...

    Bridgeport collets would be R8, completely different system, generally not used on a lathe.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 16, 2017
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  27. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    More parts have showed up for this lathe. Need some info on what it is and what its used for please. Collet indexer????? I also borrowed some 5c collets and am going to see if the drawbar will function. I talked to the guy that got the mill from the same owner of the lathe and he said he had a 3 jaw chuck for this lathe to, but I haven't seen it yet. Hoping he has collets in his pile of parts and boxes.

    IMG_20170519_142327275.jpg IMG_20170519_172558413.jpg IMG_20170519_172604901.jpg

    The chuck doesn't fit this lathe and may be for some other lathe. Not sure what it would fit, maybe someone here knows hopefully.
     
  28. machPete99

    machPete99 United States Iron Registered Member

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    That looks a little bit like a "spin indexer" or spindex, although they usually have a crank handle on the end, that one has a collet clutch lever. There are usually some disks with holes in them that can be attached. Its not generally part of a lathe, usually used on a mill.

    See:
     
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  29. chips&more

    chips&more United States Active User Active Member

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    That looks like a Hardinge HV-4N. And I’m sure there are other model numbers out there and clones. Very handy indexer, I use mine all the time. That knurled ring on the business end unscrews so you can attach other stuff and not just use the indexer with 5C collets.
     
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  30. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Drawbar question. I found a machine shop and borrowed 3 5c collets and the draw bar works like I think it should. I can get the collet in and out and it all works well. My problem is I have to use an aluminum bar to remove this. I assumed that the drawbar itself would remove it somehow. I have to tap on it with the aluminum bar to remove it and since I'm at the back of the machine, it just flies out and I cant catch it. I put a piece of wood on the bed to try and not damage anything. Seems like a good way to damage the surfaces in my opinion. There is approximately 1/8 gap between the drawbar end, and the end of the tapered part in the pic when it is installed. The face of the spindle and the bottom face of the part in the pic do not touch when a collet is installed. Can send a pic of installed if it helps. Is this the correct way this functions?
    IMG_20170512_083817277.jpg
     

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