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Monarch 10ee

Discussion in 'MONARCH MACHINE TOOL CO.' started by MattM, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. wrmiller

    wrmiller Chief Tinkerer H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Missed this! You bet I'd be interested in the schematic. Might be a cool trip down memory lane. Besides, one just never knows... :)
     
  2. wrmiller

    wrmiller Chief Tinkerer H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Easy there big guy, wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers. And I agree (see my comments about a BLDC...), so I'll just mark this down to a poor choice of words on my part. When I said "scenarios" I believe I was thinking my my old Carver and Macintosh amps. In stereos I could care less how good the specs are on a digital amp, I still prefer the 'warm' sound of a high-end analog tube-type class A amplifier. :)
     
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  3. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    If you want a schematic, call Monarch give them serial # of machine and they will send you one for a fee. The folks at Monarch are pleasant and accommodating. Some of their prices are modest some are very high. They can also tell you over phone how that machine was shipped originally. If I were looking to buy a specific machine that had been around the block a bit I would certainly call Monarch first for a little history. I don't know if Scott is still there, but he was a wealth of info for me when I bought mine years ago.

    If the price of schematic is way high, you might ask over at PM if any of the chaps have one, that is where I got my generic one that covered early Wiad machines.

    michael
     
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  4. Karl_T

    Karl_T United States Active User Active Member

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    "Question? Why do you need a 10 hp motor on basically a 10x20 precision lathe? Just curious. "

    VFD are constant torque below 100% speed. So, at 5% speed, 60 RPM, you got 1/2 hp. remember hp is speed times torque. Need that much to thread, most common use of very low rpm.

    Also, yes $200 for a 10hp motor is a good deal. of course, somebody will come along and say they got one for $10.

    I'd buy just for the insurance.

    Karl
     
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  5. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The lathe arrived yesterday all in one piece with only a small scratch on the tailstock. The machine is a thing of beauty. Bill did a great refurb job. It is now sitting in my shop ready to be hooked up. All that is required is a dryer plug and then into the 220vac single phase.

    I have all the schematics and there are a lot of them. They are actual blueprints, old and fragile. I have no way of copying them and I'm sure Staples would charge a bunch and I don't know about quality of the finished product.

    If anyone wants to borrow them to make copies let me know.
     
  6. wrmiller

    wrmiller Chief Tinkerer H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Glad it got there in one piece. Enjoy your new toy...err...lathe. :)
     
  7. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Got it plugged in, threw the switch, the blower came on, also a loud vibrating electrical sound, definitely not mechanical. After a short interval the amber light went on, the sound did not abate.

    The motor was not running as none of the controls worked.

    I called Bill but he is in Deer camp out of cell range.

    Any input?
     
  8. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    Hmmmm....That's not good

    Was the machine wired for 230V single phase? I assume that's what you have. A loose wire on a relay or switch maybe?
     
  9. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Yes, it came wired for 22o single phase.
     
  10. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    As crazy as this is going to sound, check the stop button and make sure the contacts are making good contact. Then maybe start looking for any other possible loose connections.

    EDIT:

    Maybe also check your input voltage with the machine powered up, it almost sounds like a contactor bouncing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
  11. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    Depending on what timer relay you have in machine it will not spin for 30 or 60 seconds, you hit the green button to fire it up after warm up period. Also check that your forward neutral reverse switch is not caught between poles. Usually they are wired so lever towards the tailstock is reverse, towards headstock is forward and in between is neutral, although I have seen them reversed. Also check that your spindle lock is released, there is a switch on it for safety, so if its locked no spindle rotation. I did not know a 2 tube machine could run on single phase, but then again I don't own one.

    michael
     
  12. Karl_T

    Karl_T United States Active User Active Member

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    Remember KISS. (Keep it simple stupid) Look all over for something that came loose. The old girl has taken quite a bumpy ride.

    Good luck

    If this don't work, you might as well get on with that VFD upgrade. Then it will run for another 50 years.

    Karl
     
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  13. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Well "Uncle" Bill solved the problem. It was the solinoid in hatch that is under the tailstock. It was not closing into the hole in the door which caused the annoying racket.

    With a little messing around with my middle digit I got it to obey.

    Now the machine is running and sounding like The Wife's 75 year old Singer. I'm happy. After dinner I'll be making CHIPS.
     
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  14. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Turned a few swarfs and chips on 10L14 scrap. Now I see why Monarchs are the greatest. Smooth, slick, intuitive, and quiet all the way up to 4000rpm. Threading should be a pleasure.

    I truly don't deserve this fine machine. It is WAY above my skill level. I will do my best to honor it and pass it along when I go to thar Great Machine Shop in The Sky.
     
  15. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Very nice, look forward to some photos of it in action. Looking at the schematic, the lathe runs off of L1 and L3, the control circuits run off of a 115VAC reference circuit and the motor voltage is rectified DC. Three phase would be used for the optional coolant pump. They do give some test voltages and reference points in the manual I posted, but there is significant voltages in the circuit. There are taps to set the filament heater voltages, tubes can be very finicky when it come to the heater voltages, the manuals specifies +/-5%. Assuming you have 230-240VAC coming in, you might check at some point (with the power disconnected) that the inputs for T-6 and T-7 are connected to the Black (common) and Green (237V) tap are connected to L1 and L3. You might keep your eye at for some spare C16J tubes if they come up at the right price. I have a few thousand tubes, but mostly for audio gear.
     
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  16. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Been learning the machine. Had to tweak the tailstock a little used my laser in a 3/8 collet.

    Had a piece of 1.25 drill rod which I turned down about three inches on each end to one inch on my Clausing. Then I center drilled each end and chucked one end in a one inch collet on the Monarch. The other end was held in a live center.

    Turned it at 1200 rpm. The finish was beautiful, runout over 11 inches was about .003 all of which was within 3 inches of the tailstock. Is this good, bad or indifferent?

    Tomorrow I'm going to reverse the piece and see what happens.
     
  17. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    3 thou on 11 inch piece that thick is dreadful. Bad center, or tailstock is tilting up or down too much. I would bet there are shims in between 2 sections of tailstock and that you need to reshim, but something is very wrong. Even on a well used machine that is no longer in spec you should be able to hold a couple tenths. I would not worry too much yet that it is a bed wear issue, that is a metric boatload of runout, its likely a tailstock issue. If this machine was once in a factory with several EEs, its possible you have the wrong tailstock for your machine, they were all hand scraped in to the particular machine, so you may have some shimming ahead of you.

    Good to hear its running okay and you like the surface finish.
    michael
     
  18. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It is dead on until about the last three inches from the tailstock then it falls off the cliff.
     
  19. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    If that is the case I suspect a lot of work was done on that part of the bed and you have some wear or maybe if you are lucky your carriage bearings are out of adjustment. Its in the manual how to adjust them. From experience, if you cant adjust it out then its bed wear. There is a great book on machine tool rebuilding, advertised in HSM usually (Conolly) that explains better than I how to check for bed wear, might be on line some where also. My hunch is you have misadjusted bearing and some wear. Is your Bijur oiler putting out oil to the four corners of carriage? If not bed wear will be most likely, but like I mentioned you can set up to measure that. You might look for a ding on bed way, that is causing issue. Those ways are very hard but its possible a ding is throwing carriage off in one spot especially if the bearing for carriage are misadjusted. If the bearing adjust fine to slightly difficult to turn by hand but tighten up especially in the area you are having troubles then its bed or saddle wear, most likely due to failed oiler or no oil.

    Time for a thorough proper set up of machine
    michael
     
  20. Karl_T

    Karl_T United States Active User Active Member

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    certainly sounds like tailstock. You know it can easily be adjusted in/out. I'd use an indicator on a piece of ground and polish rod with center drill. Mount the rod between centers and indicate at both ends to see what's going on.

    I work to 2 tenths just for good habit on my 10EE. Once the DRO is setup I can make part after part always just right. It will have you plumb spoilt. Every now and then I make a part on my 100 year old Leblond with babbit bearings just so I don't forget how to be a machinist. FWIW it has a 16" swing on a 120" bed, just a bit bigger than the 10EE.

    Karl
     
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  21. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I meant to say headstock not tailstock. I reversed the piece and same thing: dead on until about three inches from the headstock then dips 3-4 thousands. I checked the tailstock again with my laser. It is dead on.

    I think a lot of work was done very close to the headstock because it came with a complete set of collets many of which have "bites" on their noses. And the drawbar handwheel is worn smooth.

    I'll closely examine the ways in front of the headstock.
     
  22. chips&more

    chips&more United States Active User Active Member

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    I want to learn. Unless you are using a Laser Interferometer, how can you claim it’s dead on?...Dave
     
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  23. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    try turning a small diameter like 3/8" between centers, maybe 4 to 6 inches long, with very sharp tool see how that correlates to the larger stock you turned.
     
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  24. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Have you checked the run-out/TIR of the collet/chuck. Have you tried a different chuck and do you get the same thing? I often see collet holders and standard scroll chucks with this kind of run-out, sometimes more.
     
  25. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I used one of those laser edge finders. It fits into a 3/8 collet. and shoots a beam at the live center.

    I have a 12" piece of 5/8" ground and polished stock. I'll chuck that and see how it clocks.

    The ways seem OK no noticeable dings.
     
  26. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    laser edge finder is not going to get job done IMHO. Use tried and tested methods. center drill shaft both ends turn between centers, and see what happens, adjust tailstock and see if you can get accurate results. Might try Rolies Dad's method. Lots of methods will work, the laser edge finder might get you in neighborhood for a wood lathe but for a 10ee or a HF mini lathe, not!
     
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  27. John Hasler

    John Hasler United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    What, exactly, did you do with it?
     
  28. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Maybe I'll Sh-- can it. Probably should, I've always been suspicious of it

    OK here are the results of the test with the 5/8 ground bar: spindle runout 0,00, chuck .002, work at chuck, .003, work at 8.5" .004.
     
  29. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    Its really tough to realize your new gem is not perfect. But until you go about it scientifically you are basically throwing darts at the wall hoping for a bullseye. So level the lathe in both axis, let it calm down for a couple days or so, redo if necessary. You need a .005" level at the least and preferably a .0005" level. Then you need to center drill a shaft on both ends, turn between centers where the headstock center is trued by turning. then turn the shaft and see where you are. Using a 40 year old chuck to hold one end or using a clapped out collet chuck is not going to get you where you want to go. You also need to adjust those saddle bearings on the carriage. Like I said before and on the phone, the list of posts at PM is a huge resource, read thru all of em, might take a couple days, but compared to giving up on this machine it will be time well spent. Even a worn EE can produce great work, but you need to spend the time dialing it in, figuring out where the problems are and then figuring out how to work around them. Lots of issues affect end result, what is your backlash on cross slide, compound? Do you have a lot of overhang on compound, if so you could have flex, especially if your screw has horrendous backlash. Are you using a good tool post or some POS flimsy thing. If those carriage bearings are not adjusted correctly you are pissing in the wind. I don't mean to sound harsh, but you got yourself into this buying a freshly painted machine you had never seen in person or used in trial , its incumbent upon you to make the effort to sort it out, If you come back for further input you would be wise to list a detailed list of what your last effort was and how it compared to past results. Go about it scientifically, lay out all the facts and details.

    michael
     
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  30. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    So most of the run-out is the chuck, and then if you are using 5C collet that can add 1/2 to 1 thousandth, ther is also collet to collet variation. You might be able to tweak the chuck a bit, but even the best adjustable (set-tru) chucks can spec up to 0.004". You will also have a small amount of deflection of the bar at 8.5" and ground bar can be vary a 1/2 thousandth. When checking the TIR at different point along the rod, I look at the +/- swing around 0, so if +/-.001 at the chuck, I would expect +/- 0.002 at 8.5". If the swing is more in one direction then the piece may be skewed in the chuck or an alignment issue. Adding it all up, it is pretty darn good. I think you are getting a little tapering at the chuck vs. the tailstock because of the TIR, but there are many factors. If you have a 4J independent you could zero out the TIR at the chuck. Laser alignment in this setting is not a good idea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016

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