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Monarch 10ee

Karl_T

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#31
If you do pull the trigger on that one, let me know. I've had two 10EEs, won't part with the one in my shop, ever.

The eBay one almost certainly has the thyratron drive. VERY difficult to repair. I replaced the drive with a VFD and three phase motor, keeping the back gear out of the old DC motor. Prices on VFDs have come WAY down since I did this job. If I were doing it over, I'd get a 7.5 or 10 hp motor and VFD and forget the backgear. This could could be installed in a couple evenings.

I did note a missing bracket on the taper attachment in the eBay offer

Karl
 

MattM

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#32
Bought the Texas machine. Pick up this Wednesday delivery in 4-5 days. I am well pleased (and hope to be when it gets here.)
 

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Karl_T

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#34
With all that tooling, you did very well. have you checked tooling prices for the 10EE?

You will be extremely happy with this late model machine.

Pretty sure this era of 10EE used the thyratron drive. Use it while it works. If it needs more than minor maintenance, I'd suggest installing a 10hp 3 phase motor and VFD. I did 5hp and re-used the back gear on mine but with today's VFD prices, I'd just go larger motor if I were to go down this road again.
 

Doubleeboy

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#35
I notice Mason leveling feet on machine photo sitting on skid. My experience with Mason levelers is they are for manufacturing conveyors and the like. They are dreadful on a machine tool, the machine will vibrate and rock sitting on them. I fooled around with them for a year or so before I gave up.

Best of luck
michael
 

MattM

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#36
It has two large tubes. Does that constitute a thyratron drive?

If I go 10hp I'd have to get a larger 3 phase converter, my present one is 7.5hp.

I'm thinking on getting a DRO. Any suggestions?
I notice Mason leveling feet on machine photo sitting on skid. My experience with Mason levelers is they are for manufacturing conveyors and the like. They are dreadful on a machine tool, the machine will vibrate and rock sitting on them. I fooled around with them for a year or so before I gave up.

Best of luck
michael
Michael---Thank you. What do you suggest?---Matt
 

Doubleeboy

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#37
I like bolts with nuts and flat washers, 5/8" diameter holes on my 1956 lathe. I just let machine sit on the head of bolt, grind the grade marking off first. Only down side is you have to jack lathe up to get bolt in hole with head side down. I am old with a bad back. So I built a crude toe jack. There are plans on you tube if you like or you can pay a few hundred and buy one ready made. Jet makes a nice one, get your check book out though. If you use a toe jack make sure you are lifting on cast iron base and not that pretty aluminum cover. When I first got my machine I had it sit on 4 x 4 blocks run front to back , about 3 foot long. Worked fine but lathe was an inch too high for me. So I went with Mason feet, the orange ones, that lead to nothing but problems, surface finish went south, vibration issues. Now I have it on bolts and check level every year, much nicer.

I would not be surprised it you don't have start up problems with a 7.5 hp rotary converter, give it a try but if it wont fire up easy, you may need a 10 or twelve. Might check on the PM board and see what folks say about your model and phase conversion. As I mentioned in phone call, Donnie is man on machines of your vintage over there.

michael
 

Karl_T

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#38
It has two large tubes. Does that constitute a thyratron drive?

If I go 10hp I'd have to get a larger 3 phase converter, my present one is 7.5hp.

I'm thinking on getting a DRO. Any suggestions?


Michael---Thank you. What do you suggest?---Matt
Yep, those are thyratron tubes. The standard joke here is you need to be a EE to repair this drive. Note, if its not broke, don't fix it.

If you go to a 10hp motor and VFD, I'd hook it up to single phase 220 myself. 30 amp breaker would be plenty. if you do want to run the rotary converter to the VFD for some reason, the 7.5 hp system will be plenty. You will never use anywhere near full hp, you just need low end torque when you are running at 5% of full motor RPM. Note get a 1200 rpm not a 1750, you'll have more low end and you can still spin this motor up to 4000.

IMHO, this lathe deserves the best. I put an Accurite DRO with their best scale on the X axis. With a good system like this, working to 2 tenths accuracy is easy.
 
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MattM

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#41
He removed the tubes and packaged them separately. Pictures show they are very well wrapped and padded. I hope they survive.

He said the machine is "plug and play" except for a short warmup time for the tubes.
 

wrmiller

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#42
Cut my teeth on vacuum tubes early in my engineering schools, so reading this is like going back in time. Can the tubes be sourced today? Vacuum tubes cannot take sharp jolts as the wires to the various components (cathode, plate, grid, etc.) are quite fragile. You may want to take the vacuum tubes with you if possible.

It would be cool to see a schematic of the power supply for that thing. Maybe I should look into a Monarch?

EDIT: The guy is correct about the 'warmup time', as tubes are not instant on like solid state devices. The heater circuit for the tube's cathode needs time to warm up. We used to use delay circuits/relays in high-power stereo amps to allow a brief time for the tubes to warm up.
 

MattM

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#43
Can't take them with as I am in Oregon and the lathe is in Texas. It is coming by motor-freight, scheduled for pickup today.

A manual is included. If it has a schematic I would be happy to copy and send to you.

Never heard of Monarch before a few weeks ago when I saw some on e-bay. I became fascinated and did a lot of reading on them. The more I read the the more I knew I had to have one. Before the Monarch I was seriously considering one of the Grizzy gunsmith lathes for about half of what I paid for a 40 year old Monarch.

Hope I made the right decision. If not it will be for sale right here.
 

MattM

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#44
PS There is one for sale in Hotchkiss CO. I seriously considered it, talked with the owner and made an offer. It was quite a bit more than what I paid and it was an older machine. We couldn't agree on a price.

I think it is still up on e-bay. It is the blue one for $8200.00
 

Doubleeboy

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#45
Those c16J tubes are built like a brick poop house, mine are dated as checked and okay 1976. You can still get em new for a medium fortune or search out used ones that are guaranteed on ebone. They are not the tubes from your grandpas phonograph, they are industrial workhorses. They powered the lighting rigs in theatres back in the day when the lights were DC for their controllability factor. They were also used in huge industrial welders. Monarch could have chosen any scheme they wanted to build their no compromises toolroom lathe. For over 30 years they stuck with tubes, no surprise. If the tubes do crap out and you want a cheaper alternative rewire and remount for much cheaper and lower hp capable C6J, wont have the hp but who cares, 1 hp DC would still throw you and a few friends across the shop if needed. Even wired with c6j you would still have about same power as HLVH. In my opinion, the tubes are not the weak link in a 1970s machine, its the caps , resistors, and rusty chokes that are likely to cause problems.

You will likely happily run your machine for years and years in a home shop environment with no problems and be miles ahead of having bought a price point machine from China.

michael

btw, a 10ee will run with only one working tube, albeit at reduced speed.
 

wrmiller

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#46
Ah...C16Js. Control diode/rectifier if my memory is correct. And yea, those are commercial tubes. Very well built.

Michael: I like your comments about the passive components. Were I ever to get one, I might have to re-work with more modern pieces.
 

John Hasler

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#50
Those industrial thyratrons are robust and reliable. If necessary they could be replaced by SCRs with suitable control circuitry. The entire motor control could also be replaced with a modern design. Ripping it all out and installing an induction motor would be a travesty.
 

wrmiller

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#51
Yea, they are basically diodes used to full-wave rectify the incoming A/C. Back then semiconductors were incapable of high current or high voltage. My first 'electronics' job was repairing radios and TVs in my HS electronics instructor's garage shop. Anyone remember the Quasar works in a drawer TV? It had transistors for the low voltage circuits in the drawer, but used tubes for the high powered sweep circuits for the CRT/picture tube. And then there was that nasty flyback step-up transformer that powered the high-voltage anode on the side of the CRT. Got knocked on my butt a few times by that 30kv plus circuit. Thank goodness it was very low current. I only twitched for a couple of hours after getting nailed.

But yea, I would prefer to update the drive if possible, rather than replace it. I've known for years that DC motors are WAY smoother than the old A/C motors of 50+ years ago. This is why some company's went to great lengths to come up with alternatives both electrical and mechanical for the high-precision lathes of the day. Give me a 3 hp BLDC with a uber quiet power supply, nicely filtered and isolated, and I could make that bad boy sing.

Although a good VFD and quality 3-phase motor would come close enough to likely make the difference marginal at best. But hey, it's a Monarch! :)
 
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Karl_T

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#52
The 10EE of this era uses an extremely complex drive that adjusts voltages to both the field and armature to give maximum torque over a range of 30:1. this all done without semi conductors. Today's drives leave one constant, often with permanent magnets, and employ semi conductor technology. Still, you don't get the large range of speed and torque that monarch obtained 50 years ago.

The repair issue is all the parts have degraded in this analog system at 50 years age. So, which parts should be replaced when its not completely broke but not working like it used to?

I had the same problem with a very old car. so, I jacked up the radiator cap and replaced everything underneath. :) IMHO, do the same with the 10EE. Shop for a used 10hp 1200 rpm 3 phase motor ahead of time as it may take a bit of searching to find this.
 

MattM

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#53
Thanks for the tip. Found one for $200 on CL less than 5 miles from home. Is that a good price?
 

wrmiller

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#55
The 10EE of this era uses an extremely complex drive that adjusts voltages to both the field and armature to give maximum torque over a range of 30:1. this all done without semi conductors. Today's drives leave one constant, often with permanent magnets, and employ semi conductor technology. Still, you don't get the large range of speed and torque that monarch obtained 50 years ago.

The repair issue is all the parts have degraded in this analog system at 50 years age. So, which parts should be replaced when its not completely broke but not working like it used to?

I had the same problem with a very old car. so, I jacked up the radiator cap and replaced everything underneath. :) IMHO, do the same with the 10EE. Shop for a used 10hp 1200 rpm 3 phase motor ahead of time as it may take a bit of searching to find this.
We live in an analog, not digital world. Sometimes analog solutions for certain scenarios would still be preferable today, but digital is faster to design/build, less costly, and 'close enough' for most markets.

Question? Why do you need a 10 hp motor on basically a 10x20 precision lathe? Just curious.
 

John Hasler

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#56
The 10EE of this era uses an extremely complex drive that adjusts voltages to both the field and armature to give maximum torque over a range of 30:1. this all done without semi conductors. Today's drives leave one constant, often with permanent magnets, and employ semi conductor technology. Still, you don't get the large range of speed and torque that monarch obtained 50 years ago.
Both armature and field can be controlled with semiconductor controls. Even with PM motors (used because they are more efficient and cheaper) 20:1 full torque speed control is possible with feedback and a PID controller (which can be implemented in a $5 microcontroller). Give me control of the field and I can easily push that up to 30:1.

If I had one of those Monarchs I'd try hard to keep the thyratron system working just so I could watch them glow, but if I couldn't I'd still keep the original motor and control concept. You'll never match it with an induction motor + VFD. You'd have to go to a BLDC system which would cost as much as the lathe.
 

Doubleeboy

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#57
We live in an analog, not digital world. Sometimes analog solutions for certain scenarios would still be preferable today, but digital is faster to design/build, less costly, and 'close enough' for most markets.

Question? Why do you need a 10 hp motor on basically a 10x20 precision lathe? Just curious.
Bill, when you take out the stock Monarch WiaD or later drive and replace it with VFD driven motor usually the back gear is removed. The original tube drive and its later versions with less tubes and more semi conductors had a pretty sophisticated servo feedback arrangement controlling all aspects of the motors windings (if I understand this correctly). So when you take out the back gear, if you want consistent spindle speed under a variety of loads you need a massive amount of hp to make up for the loss of low end torque at slow speeds.

On my dead stock 1956 WiaD machine you can slow spindle down to 8 rpm, have a smooth surface mounted on spindle like a bare faceplate, try to grab it with your hands to slow it down, won't happen, the drive senses the load and increases the field I believe to make up for the new increased load. Same deal at high rpms. It was and is a brilliant system seeing as they came up with this in the very early 1950s as an improvement on the motor generator set up which had similar capabilities. This system was taken to its absurd limits in the incredible 1000ee which had lots more C16Js, way more horse power, constant surface speed and every wiz bang control feature possible. The guy I bought my lathe from years ago has one, says it makes the 10ee look primitive and small.

When I went looking for an ee I looked at numerous do over machines, some very expensive jobs with huge outboard ss control boards, none of em worked as good as a WiaD machine that was operating half decently. One 7 hp conversion I looked at had the bill, 22000 bucks spent on it, funac controls, except the idiots took out the back gear and I could stall machine easily with my hands at speeds under 200 or so rpm. That experience was repeated several times before I ruled out converted machines unless they were done by Monarch and no one was selling one of those. I am sure others can describe the drive better than I , all I know is conversion machines basically are a sad replica of what the Lion of Sydney figured out 60 plus years ago with tubes. BTW they swing 12.5" according to build plate and I measure 13.25"

cheers
michael
 

wrmiller

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#58
I have worked on similar analog closed-loop systems. Been a long time though. I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have, but this would make for an interesting conversation for another thread on drive control systems. :)
 

John Hasler

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#60
We live in an analog, not digital world. Sometimes analog solutions for certain scenarios would still be preferable today, but digital is faster to design/build, less costly, and 'close enough' for most markets.
I started my engineering career designing analog motor controls. Digital isn't just 'close enough'. Modern digital systems can equal or exceed the capabilities of any analog system while still being less expensive and more reliable.
 
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