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Models for grinding HSS Lathe Tools

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HBilly1022

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Thanks guys.

I don't want to take this great thread off topic so I may start another thread on this topic after I get a chance to chase up some options.
 

mikey

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Here's a manual for the Busy Bee 2x28" CT169N
https://www.busybeetools.com/content/product_manuals/CT169N.pdf

Page 12 of that manual shows this:
View attachment 244294

and this:
View attachment 244295

So it appears that even with that cover removed you will not have a piece of sanding belt with a support platten behind it but with access to the edge of the belt.



Yeah, I think you're right.....I searched on the Lee Valley tools site (my "goto" site for sanding belts) and they have NONE that size.

-brino
Thanks, Brino. The pics help to show this machine will not work as a tool grinder, at least not for the rake angles. Too bad.

Guys, look for one like Doubleeboy linked to. I know that sander will definitely work. Somebody in Canada must carry one for a not-stupid price.
 

Z2V

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IMG_3809.JPG IMG_3812.JPG IMG_3813.JPG
I made myself a set of 3/8" tools today to use with the new lathe. I made the threading tool to cut left or right threads. The square tool took a good heavy cut like butter and left a great finish also.
I took a quick video but I can't insert it for some reason.
I'm going to like these tools!!


We've added a couple more names to the list today!! I think we have 23 signed up so far. Keep em coming.

We still have a set in Canada also.
 

mikey

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View attachment 244413 View attachment 244414 View attachment 244415
I made myself a set of 3/8" tools today to use with the new lathe. I made the threading tool to cut left or right threads. The square tool took a good heavy cut like butter and left a great finish also.
I took a quick video but I can't insert it for some reason.
I'm going to like these tools!!


We've added a couple more names to the list today!! I think we have 23 signed up so far. Keep em coming.

We still have a set in Canada also.
New lathe, new skills, new tools - you're doing great, Jeff. Seeing you, Barry, Dave, Bamban and the others succeed has made me so happy. You guys have made all the work worthwhile - thank you all!
 

HBilly1022

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Even these guys don't carry 2" x 28"!!!!! Must be a real oddball size. I'll pass on that size sander just for that reason.

Z2V, Those are nice looking grinds and I see you did double duty on the threading tool. Did you also grind both ends of the other 2?

I was in the City yesterday and picked up 5 - 3/8" HSS blanks, to try may hand at grinding using the info provided by Mike. Also picked up some 1" x 30" belts and gave that a go but the AO belts took too long to grind using a 50 grit, which was the coarsest I could find and AO was the only thing available. Used the grinder to bulk off material and then back to the belt sander for find tuning and then a new diamond hone. I need to work on my honing skills but the tool cut great. Took a 0.100" DOC on some mystery steel and the material just peeled off. Didn't even get real hot either. That is the biggest DOC I have ever taken. I like this. THANK YOU MIKE.

I'm not sure how to judge the radius on the cutting edge of the tool and I'm looking forward to seeing the sample tools Mike has in distribution so I get get that right, along with the other grinds.
 

mikey

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Even these guys don't carry 2" x 28"!!!!! Must be a real oddball size. I'll pass on that size sander just for that reason.

Z2V, Those are nice looking grinds and I see you did double duty on the threading tool. Did you also grind both ends of the other 2?

I was in the City yesterday and picked up 5 - 3/8" HSS blanks, to try may hand at grinding using the info provided by Mike. Also picked up some 1" x 30" belts and gave that a go but the AO belts took too long to grind using a 50 grit, which was the coarsest I could find and AO was the only thing available. Used the grinder to bulk off material and then back to the belt sander for find tuning and then a new diamond hone. I need to work on my honing skills but the tool cut great. Took a 0.100" DOC on some mystery steel and the material just peeled off. Didn't even get real hot either. That is the biggest DOC I have ever taken. I like this. THANK YOU MIKE.

I'm not sure how to judge the radius on the cutting edge of the tool and I'm looking forward to seeing the sample tools Mike has in distribution so I get get that right, along with the other grinds.
Glad the geometry worked for you, HB. Now that you can take a big cut, see how the tool works for small cuts; this is where HSS really shines.

Pick a material and take a skim cut to get the skin off and then measure it. Choose a target size, with dimensions in the tenths. Rough it with the tool perpendicular to the work until you're within 0.01000" of final size. Then turn the tip of the tool toward the tailstock about 10 degrees and take 0.005 - 0.007" off with a sizing pass. Without changing the tool angle, take one or two finish cuts and see if you can come in exactly on size. This is how you will normally work with your tool - rough ugly, size to get close and then shave off a hair to come in on size.

This brings to mind the concept of tolerances. In a production shop, tolerances usually run +/- 0.005" unless otherwise stated. In a hobby shop, a guy with a good tool can get his range much tighter without too much trouble once he knows how the tool likes to cut. I have a square tool that is well over a decade old. It is in need of regrinding or replacement but I am loathe to get rid of it because it will cut whatever I can dial in. If I dial in a depth of cut with a dial indicator the tool will usually cut it. This tool has cut off 0.0002" off the diameter in a controlled cut. Everything is right on this tool, especially the nose radius, so I gently hone only the top when it needs to be sharpened. My daily driver knife tool will do the same thing.

As for nose radius, my suggestion is to buy a radius gauge set. A cheap import set will do. This allows you to have a clear idea of what a 1/64" or a 1/32" radius looks like. You do not need to be exact with your nose radius; just get it close. When you stone it onto the tip of the tool, grind a flat slightly less than the desired nose radius and be sure the flat is even from the top to the bottom of the tool, then gently round the edges of the flat to blend in with the side and end faces.
 

HBilly1022

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Glad the geometry worked for you, HB. Now that you can take a big cut, see how the tool works for small cuts; this is where HSS really shines.

Pick a material and take a skim cut to get the skin off and then measure it. Choose a target size, with dimensions in the tenths. Rough it with the tool perpendicular to the work until you're within 0.01000" of final size. Then turn the tip of the tool toward the tailstock about 10 degrees and take 0.005 - 0.007" off with a sizing pass. Without changing the tool angle, take one or two finish cuts and see if you can come in exactly on size. This is how you will normally work with your tool - rough ugly, size to get close and then shave off a hair to come in on size.

This brings to mind the concept of tolerances. In a production shop, tolerances usually run +/- 0.005" unless otherwise stated. In a hobby shop, a guy with a good tool can get his range much tighter without too much trouble once he knows how the tool likes to cut. I have a square tool that is well over a decade old. It is in need of regrinding or replacement but I am loathe to get rid of it because it will cut whatever I can dial in. If I dial in a depth of cut with a dial indicator the tool will usually cut it. This tool has cut off 0.0002" off the diameter in a controlled cut. Everything is right on this tool, especially the nose radius, so I gently hone only the top when it needs to be sharpened. My daily driver knife tool will do the same thing.

As for nose radius, my suggestion is to buy a radius gauge set. A cheap import set will do. This allows you to have a clear idea of what a 1/64" or a 1/32" radius looks like. You do not need to be exact with your nose radius; just get it close. When you stone it onto the tip of the tool, grind a flat slightly less than the desired nose radius and be sure the flat is even from the top to the bottom of the tool, then gently round the edges of the flat to blend in with the side and end faces.
Thanks Mike, I learned something new again. I wasn't aware of the proper sequence for getting to target diameter. Going to give that a go later. I've just been leaving the tool at the same angle and trying to hit target size that way but sometimes (well really, a lot of times) the finish is not good and I have to take a lot of small cuts in order not to overshoot the target.

Also wasn't aware of a radius gauge and will now get some of those.
 

mikey

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Thanks Mike, I learned something new again. I wasn't aware of the proper sequence for getting to target diameter. Going to give that a go later. I've just been leaving the tool at the same angle and trying to hit target size that way but sometimes (well really, a lot of times) the finish is not good and I have to take a lot of small cuts in order not to overshoot the target.

Also wasn't aware of a radius gauge and will now get some of those.
You have a tool that will do what you tell it to but you have to use it correctly. Don't worry; we all have to learn to stage our cuts at some point. Your tool will make very shallow cuts with just the nose radius as you've been doing but it will finish better when the lead angle/side cutting edge is turned toward the tailstock. Since you have more of the side cutting edge in contact with the work cutting forces will be higher but we are taking small cuts so its not usually an issue. The important thing is to come in on size with a decent finish. Give it a try. You will need to play with your angle until it cuts clean and finishes nicely. Eventually, you learn to position the tool at a glance; I do it without even thinking about it.

As for the radius gauges, spending your money is what we do!
 
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Z2V

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HBilly
I only ground both ends of the threading tool. I biased the cutting tip to the left side of the tool on one end and the right side on the other end.
You mentioned honing, I honed four 3/8" tools last night and my fingers are killing me, LOL

Hey Mikey, This is a great forum and one outstanding thread, Thank You Sir
 

mikey

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Hey Mikey, this is a great forum and one outstanding thread, Thank You Sir
You're welcome, Jeff. The guys on the HM forum are best - they make newbies feel welcome and comfortable asking questions. Heck, they even let me on here.
 

HBilly1022

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I think a person could make the radius gauge pretty simply at home. Take a 2 x 2 piece of sheet metal and drill holes in each of the corners.
Drill an 1/8 inch hole for a 1/16th radius, a 1/16 hole for 1/32 radius, then grind the corner off, exposing the radius gauge.
GREAT idea, especially since I only plan to use it for tool grinding. Thanks for the tip.
 

HBilly1022

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@HBilly1022, @DHarris, I just checked on Amazon and they sell a pack of 1X30 belts with an assortment of grits. I bet this would make your belt sanders much better for tool grinding. Here is the link: https://www.amazon.com/Makers-Premi...=1508298760&sr=1-4&keywords=1x30+ceramic+belt
Thanks for the link Mike. Unfortunately they do not ship that item to Canada. I'm pretty sure I can find 1" x 30" ceramic belts somewhere up here but I've been busy in the shop for the last few days so internet hunting is on hold for a bit.
 

mikey

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mikey

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mikey

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Belts made by Hermes, a German maker, and assembled and sold by Red Label.

The difference between the two packages on Amazon is that the cheaper one is shipped by Amazon; the other is drop shipped from Red Label.

I don't know how good other ceramic belts work but I do know the Hermes belts work really well. I'm sold anyway.
 

ddickey

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Thanks Mike.
Noticed the one package had a light weight backing on the finer grits also.
Just ordered.
 

mikey

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Metal

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Whoops I totally forgot about this

Mikey: can you shoot me your mailing address, I'd like to shoot out the 3dp example tools to you to see if you think anything should be added or any lightbulbs go off before I make any for anyone :)
 

mikey

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Whoops I totally forgot about this

Mikey: can you shoot me your mailing address, I'd like to shoot out the 3dp example tools to you to see if you think anything should be added or any lightbulbs go off before I make any for anyone :)
I'll PM it to you. Thank you, Sir!
 

tweinke

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If the printed tools look like a good deal for me at least I think owning a set would be nice for future reference and to possibly help someone out if I can.
 

tweinke

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Oh by the way, previously I had read Mikey's tool grinding technique article elsewhere and gave an attempt at grinding his way sometime ago. They were the first tools that convinced me that HSS was the way to go on my machine and after getting the models and regrinding to match they work even better. Took the models for me to get angle and radius right. Now I want to build a 2x72 belt grinder when I have a chance.
 

Aukai

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Mike, thank you. I just added the 36 grit, and see how that goes.
 
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