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Models for grinding HSS Lathe Tools

Discussion in 'A BEGINNER'S FORUM (Learn How To Machine Here!)' started by mikey, Sep 9, 2017.

  1. DHarris

    DHarris United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hey Jeff & Barry,

    I would be happy to send a set up to Barry - Son and Daughter-in-law & grandkids there so used to the experience/costs involved.

    No problems!

    Dave Harris
     
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  2. Z2V

    Z2V United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Dave

    Sounds good to me. I'll send you PM and put Barry after you on the list.
    Thanks

    Barry
    I'll PM you contact info that you can forward to when you are done.
     
  3. Metal

    Metal United States Active Member Active Member

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    As dumb as it sounds, I wouldn't mind some 3d models

    I could 3d print them and send them out to new machinists for next to nothing, sure they won't be 100% accurate once printed but it should give people grinding their first tools a good idea of what kind of shape they are looking for in 3 dimensions
     
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  4. q20v

    q20v H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Dave,

    Thank you very much! Please let me know if there's anything I can do to reimburse some of the extra expense you may incur.

    Jeff,

    Sounds good!

    Barry
     
  5. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That would be awesome! Can you get on the list and model the tools? If there is a demand, you could send them out for a fee to cover all your costs and maybe a little bit for yourself. If I was a new guy and could buy something to keep, I would do it.
     
  6. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    @Z2V, @DHarris , thank you for helping Barry out. I just love this place!
     
  7. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I just got notified that my new ceramic belts are shipping - finally. I get to review them for you here and that will be cool. Sorry it's taking so long but if you've ever had an old belt snap on you when your hands are next to them then you understand why I ordered new belts.

    I was speaking to Bonehead last night and he cracked up when I told him I posted a picture of my early tools and his note. In his typical sensitive manner, he said, "You mean that even after they saw how you grind tools, there is still interest?" :bang head:
     
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  8. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Any chance a newbie guy on here that noone knows can get in on this? I'd even help out if possible. I have some unground tools that I could send out to someone for the cause. Thank you all.
     
  9. Aukai

    Aukai United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Metal, if you go through with the idea of 3D printing I would like to be on that list also. Let me know the costs associated when you are ready.
     
  10. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Heck yeah, you can get in on this. PM @Z2V and ask him to put you on the list.

    Love your avatar pic, by the way!
     
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  11. Dhector

    Dhector United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Cant remember where I robbed the pic on the net from but I couldn't pass it up!!!! I love it!!!!

    I did PM him right before the post. He hasn't even had time to reply to me honestly before my post here. I just wanted to throw out there that Id be willing to donate some tools if it would help the cause. This machining stuff is cool and I tend to purchase for the future(to an extent) in case I ever figure out how I need to do things. Probably spend more that I should but why do I have a job in the first place, right!! :) I also got a box of stuff from the estate where my lathe came from and it got all sorts of tools already ground so i may not need the uncut ones I bought for several years honestly. Anyway without writing a book the offer is open if it appeals! Thanks.
     
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  12. darkzero

    darkzero Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    This is a great thread to help beginner grinders! I sure could use the guidance as well! Thanks to Mikey & all those who are participating in this!

    I'll make this thread a sticky for a while.
     
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  13. Z2V

    Z2V United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Dhector

    You are on the list. PM sent with info

    Jeff
     
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  14. Metal

    Metal United States Active Member Active Member

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    I am absolutely game with putting you guys on "a list" I can probably do it for like 5-10 bucks tops as long as USPS will take them in a normal envelope.

    However Ive started turning "parts" as of... like 2 weeks ago, so I wouldn't be a good person to 3d model these since I've only ground one tool poorly so far, lol :)
    If anyone wants to send me a set of properly ground tools I could model them and send them back though.
     
  15. Z2V

    Z2V United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Metal
    i will be glad to add you to the list if you PM me contact info.

    Jeff
     
  16. dlane

    dlane Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    metal , Do What, I'll pass
     
  17. Randall Marx

    Randall Marx United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I would love to get on the list, but I want to get my grinder set up with decent rests first.
    Metal: What type of 3D models can you use? I have access to Solidworks and could model them for you, based on Mike's pictures and descriptions, if that would help.
    -Randall
     
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  18. Metal

    Metal United States Active Member Active Member

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    Yeah solidworks, fusion, really any format would work that is object based
     
  19. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I finally got my ceramic belts in and gave it a try on mild steel keystock and ... it ate my keystock! I bought the coarsest grit, 36 grit, and 80 grit belts from Red Label Abrasives: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H8YWLNU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    These ceramic belts are stearate-coated to reduce material build up and this allows it to run cooler. I applied some stick wax anyway and proceeded to grind the keystock. The 36 grit cuts very aggressively for the first few passes across the face and then it settled down and felt smoother. I assume I am knocking the tops off the ceramic crystals and when they're sort of level, the grind settles down to a smoother cut. I am used to using a 24 grit Alum. Oxide belt and this 36 grit belt is way more aggressive than the AO. It chewed through the mild steel like it was aluminum, and I cannot see any evidence of wear after grinding one bit.

    I switched to the 80 grit belt for a second pass to clean up the coarse grind marks left by the 36 grit belt and the finish left by the 80 grit belt looks like the finish left by my 24 grit AO belt. This ceramic stuff cuts faster and much more aggressively than AO and now I realize that I should have ordered 60 grit for shaping and 120 or finer grit for finishing. I will re-order new belts later but will make do with what I have so I can get the model tools done. I have to say that I am impressed!

    I will need to grind some HSS with this belt to see what that is like but I suspect these ceramic belts will very likely become my preferred belts once I figure out the grits. They cut fast, cool and are pretty economical for what they are. I am anxious to grind a tool for aluminum to see if this belt will cut the back rake angle better than my AO belts do. My aluminum tool has 40 degrees of back rake and this tends to push the belt back onto the platen, leaving a curve on top of the tool. While the tool works well, the back rake looks funny. If these belts cut instead of push on the belt then I may just be able to grind a more accurate tool after all. We'll see.

    I'll do a follow up report on these belts after I have a chance to grind a HSS tool. I'll start work on the model tools tomorrow and then they'll be on the way - hang on, guys!
     
  20. Z2V

    Z2V United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for sharing that with us Mike. I'll give he's strong consideration for the 2x72 I'm making.
     
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  21. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It cuts like crazy on my little 2x42. I can only imagine what it would be like using a 1-2hp motor and having 72" of ceramic belt running around. It would probably take you just a few minutes to crank out a lathe tool.
     
  22. Aukai

    Aukai United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Sounds impressive.....:encourage:
     
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  23. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The belts can handle mild steel, which isn't saying that much. We'll see how they do with a Rex 95 blank. If they eat that, too, then I'll really be impressed. I'm liking them so far, though.
     
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  24. Randall Marx

    Randall Marx United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Sorry I've been away for a few days, but will start on solid models soon...possibly at lunch today. I think this is a GREAT idea for all that are involved and thank all who are helping! :D
     
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  25. Metal

    Metal United States Active Member Active Member

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    I ordered some filament for this on monday
    All proceeds beyond costs will be donated to HM
     
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  26. Randall Marx

    Randall Marx United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Update: I think I got the Square tool done, but will attempt to include a picture to make sure it conforms to Mike's design. I included no dimensions, but gave the classic 3-view drawing. All relief and rake angles are 15 degrees and both radii are 1/64". Mike, please let me know if this is right. If so, I'll get the other two done and models sent to Metal so he can try the 3-D printing. Square Tool 3-view.JPG
     
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  27. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Looks good to me, Randall. It might be an idea to wait until you get the model because for this project I made the side cutting edge angle a bit smaller to give more mass at the tip. The reason is that I don't know who will use it and how they'll use it. This small change of a few degrees will add a lot more strength to the tip.

    I am done with the models ... almost. I was done but then I tried to make the square tools look pretty by honing off the grinding marks with a diamond stone. The material is so soft that this changed the geometry of the tool! I had to go to the hardware store for more keystock and should be able to get the square tools done today. I'll just deburr them and then I can get them in the mail. Sorry this is taking so long, guys.
     
  28. Randall Marx

    Randall Marx United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hi Mike
    Do you mean that the first grind is less than 60% or that the relief angle is less? If I have a good description, I can work from that unless you really think I need to wait. I put this one together from your article that you wrote on machinistblog (which I found to be quite informative and gave me a better idea of what the angles all do).
    Thanks for the input and thank you VERY much for the great idea and effort.
    Randall
     
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  29. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The side cutting edge angle is slightly less than I normally make it. The tool will look very much like the one in the How to grind a HSS tool article on HM. In fact, it will be almost identical to that one. My best advice? Wait for the tool or wait until you see the write up so you don't have to do it twice. I would hate to have you and Metal go through the trouble, only to have it not be the way the models are.

    I think this project has to potential to help more people and if it does then its worth the effort. Grinding the tools is no effort. Writing them up is where the work is and I'm getting to that.
     
  30. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Well, I got the models done and they are ready to ship tomorrow. From left to right, a general purpose Square Tool, a general purpose Knife Tool and a 60 degree threading tool:

    IMG_5637.jpg

    IMG_5638.jpg

    IMG_5639.jpg

    I am going to write these tools up but it is going to take me some time to do that. I ask for your patience as I do this. I will try to post my comments as I complete them in parts. You can follow along, correct me, ask questions and I'll do my best to keep up. By the time we're done, you should have what you need to reproduce these tools in HSS.

    Each tool is proven to work as intended. None of them are ground to conventional angles. Instead, they are ground to cut with lower cutting forces and temperatures, which should allow them to cut deeper, size more accurately and finish finer on a smaller hobby class lathe. If you would prefer using conventional tool angles then just use the values found in the typical angle table. In fact, it would be a good idea at some point to grind a tool with conventional angles and compare it to a modified tool like those above and see what the differences are. Do the same with those tools and your carbide tools. You will quickly find which tool works best in the different materials you work with and will then know which tool is the best one for the job at hand. Personally, I don't believe that you should use only HSS or only carbide; I think you should use the right tool for the job and you cannot do that unless you can grind a good HSS tool. Then you have options, right?

    Anyway, the tools will go out as soon as I can post them and then I'll get to writing.
     
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