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Massive Runout on my new D1-4 5C Collet chuck. Suggestions???

Discussion in 'QUESTIONS & ANSWERS (Get Help Fast Here!)' started by CNC Dude, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. CNC Dude

    CNC Dude United States Active User Active Member

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    Hi Group,

    Recently acquired an import D1-4 5C Collet chuck for my 12x36 lathe and am experiencing massive runout and wobbling to unacceptable levels (about 12 mils!). I am wondering if there is any adjustment that you can think of or whether I am wasting my time with this guy here. The eBay seller told me that how deep I screw the D Lock cams will determine runout. I tried dozens of combinations and with all of them I got basically the same 9 to 12 mils worth of runout.

    Here is a picture of the screws that I have on the back:

    ChuckScrews.jpg

    The intriguing thing is that if I measure runout at the base of the chuck, I get less than 1 mils worth of variation. The way this chuck is constructed is that there are two halves, so the base would be the first half. When I measure the second half, which is where the collet goes, then I see the variation of up to 12 mils. If I place a part on the collet, I get the same variation.

    Any idea on how this can be brought to usable levels? Thanks!

    ChuckScrews.jpg
     
  2. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Former Vice President Staff Member Administrator

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    The seller doesn't seem to understand the D lock system. Each stud has one, and only one position that is acceptable for use. You have the option of one turn too deep, correct, or one turn too shallow. When you engage the locking lug, it draws the chuck body tightly against the spindle face. If you have the stud too deep, the locking lug will not engage correctly, or if the stud is too shallow it will not. I suppose in an odd case that all of the studs were one turn shallow, there would be a visible gap between the chuck base and the spindle nose, but It would be unlikely that all three were wrong. Can you see any gap? With the locking lugs not engaged, can you seat the chuck base firmly against the spindle?
     
  3. CNC Dude

    CNC Dude United States Active User Active Member

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    I was able to find a D Lock position in which all three locks are engaged. The chuck is super firmly attached to the spindle and no gaps are visible.

    The chuck half closer to the spindle measures true. The second half, where the collet goes, is where I see the wobble. Hence, somehow this half is not set up correctly. I am wondering if there is any technique to set it up correctly.

    Or do I have a big fishing weight?
     
  4. Ray C

    Ray C United States Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    First things first... Remove the cam lugs completely by removing the cam position/lock screws then, unscrew the lugs themselves. Now, take the chuck and press it up against the spindle nose fitting and check to see if it sits flat (or comes anywhere close to sitting flat) against the face of the spindle.

    On almost all backplates, the tapered hole that the spindle nose fits into, is cut small in diameter. That tapered hole must be the proper size to allow a perfectly flush fit when the cams are locked. Check this first and we'll go from there.


    Ray
     
  5. CNC Dude

    CNC Dude United States Active User Active Member

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    Ray, I am positive the back plate is super tight against the spindle. There is no play here. In fact, when I use an indicator on the back plate, this thing is as tight as you would expect from an import chuck. I measure less than 1 mil wobble.

    I think I need to explain this further so here is another picture:

    ChuckPartition..jpg

    Notice the chuck is divided in two sections. This is very hard to notice, but if you look at the wrench key hole (yellow square), you will notice the partition line.

    When I fully engage the three CAM locks, if I place my indicator on what I am calling Half 1, I get practically no runout. This holds true as long as the indicator is between the partition line and the lathe spindle (i.e. anywhere on the Half 1 region). As soon as I place the indicator after the partition line, I start seeing 12 thousands of an inch of runout. This includes the part on the collet.

    If the entire chuck was not sitting properly against the spindle, then the chuck would form the hypotenuse of a triangle and I should be seeing the runout increasing as I move the indicator farther away from the spindle. However, that is not the case, Hence, the only plausible conclusion I can reach at this time is that Half 2 is not sitting properly against Half 1, but there is no way (that I can see) to get this corrected.

    I am starting to think that indeed I have an alligator jaw breaker on my hands...

    ChuckPartition..jpg
     
  6. george wilson

    george wilson United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Carefully wipe a very thin coat of high spot blue onto the empty face of your lathe spindle. It is of the HIGHEST importance to get this blue in an exceedingly THIN coat on the surfaces,or you will get readings no better that the thickness of the blue. Then,without tipping the chuck any more than you can,mount the chuck onto the spindle and tighten down the cams. NO NEED to get the blue into the cams!!

    If all seems to mate up well,loosen those socket head cap screws that hold the front part of the collet chuck on. See if there is any room inside the mating parts of the chuck to slide the chuck's front part sideways If so,replace the screws,leaving them snug,but not tight. Then,put on a collet of KNOWN ACCURACY(collets can be bad too!) into the chuck. Hold an end mill shank (NOT DRILL ROD! it is not accurate enough) in the collet. indicate it and tap the collet sideways with a small plastic or brass hammer. Take your indicator probe OFF the end mill while you do this. You can ruin the indicator by shocking it with taps. Mess around until you get the end mill to run .0001". Then,CAREFULLY remove the chuck and progressively tighten the screws. This may throw it out some. You have to keep on till you get it right.

    If the mating surfaces do not mate up well,remove the chuck and look where the blue has transferred to the mating surfaces on the chuck. This will tell you if the chuck's tapered hole is too small or too large,and if the other surface is not going down flush.

    If the tapered hole in your chuck is too small,you probably ought to just send it back. Otherwise,you must put it back side out in a 4 jaw chuck and with a good dial indicator,carefully get all the surfaces to run dead nuts true. Then,you must take a GOOD tool post grinder and grind a bit out of the hole. You can go by degrees. Undo the cam pins on the back of the 4 jaw chuck AFTER marking one pin and which hole it went into. Without bumping the chucks,and with blue on the spindle again, press the back of the collet chuck against the spindle. You don't need to install the pins to do this. Check where the blue touched,and find out if you need to take another slight grind off the back of the collet chuck. This is the simplest way I can figure to get your chuck to properly match your spindle.b If you don't get the collet chuck to run true on all surfaces before you grind anything,you will likely screw it up for good.

    If you do a good job of fitting the chuck to the spindle and it still runs out of true,the hole and taper where the collet goes may be ground off center. You really should try loosening the cap screws first and see if the chuck can be adjusted sideways.

    I always do this exercise when I get a new chuck,to get it to run as true as it possibly can.

    When I got my new 16" Grizzly,I kissed the surfaces of the spindle with a tool post grinder,including the tapered hole. There was a bit of runout on the surfaces. Not a lot,but I'm a perfectionist. I don't advise anyone to try doing this unless they really know what they are doing. You can't take metal off once it is removed.

    Once the surface had been ground,I put on each chuck and faceplate with blue,to make sure everything mated up perfectly.

    If you got the chuck cheap,or if you like to overcome problems,time no object,you can keep it and try to get the problems worked out.


    Not to confuse you,but here is a list of things I can think of that COULD be wrong with the collet chuck:

    1. Problem with the chuck not mating up to the spindle nose

    2.The front of the chuck may just need to be adjusted sideways. I have a Cushman collet chuck that takes much larger type collets that I need to adjust. A Cushman was an excellent chuck,so I'm sure it just needs adjusting.

    3. The hole and/or the tapered hole that holds the collets may be out of true. The straight part of the hole could be too large. The hole could be ground at a slight angle to the centerline of the chuck. The tapered part could also be ground askew.

    4. The back side of the chuck could have been ground at a slight angle to the centerline of the chuck. The tapered hole could also be ground askew.

    These imperfections need only be slight so that you cannot detect them by eye,and they must be determined by indicating everything in a methodical manner.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  7. Ray C

    Ray C United States Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    OK... We need to diagnose this front to back. BTW, the problem could still be in the back of the chuck but, lets look at some different things...

    What happens when you indicate off the C5 taper as shown? This location, by the way, is the only important place you need it to be zero/little runout. The side body, nose -and all other locations are meaningless.

    Note that on mine, I have a non-integral backplate. The backplate fits the spindle perfectly. This allows me to adjust the position of the chuck on the backplate until there is no runout on the taper. This particular chuck always zeros.

    In your case, you might try making witness marks in ink, and rotating the backplate to different positions on the spindle. If any particular position is zero, always use that position.

    Try these things and let me know...

    EDIT: I just saw George's post and he's (of course) correct on all points. I'm dragging you through the steps to isolate what the problem is.



    InidcatedColletChuck.JPG

    Ray

    InidcatedColletChuck.JPG
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  8. flutedchamber

    flutedchamber United States Active User Active Member

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    Avayan,

    If you don't mind me asking, what brand is the chuck?
     
  9. erparis

    erparis United States Active Member Active Member

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    Recently purchased same D1-4 5c collet chuck. I had to install/adjust the cam pins to mount. IT had .030-.040 runout at the collet nose, without the collet inserted. Sent it back for exchange. New one is .008. Have not made adjustments yet to see if I can make it better.
    RIchard
     
  10. xalky

    xalky United States Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    Start by inserting the chuck in the best Cam lock location. The chuck halves screws is where I would start. Loosen them up just enough so that the nose of the chuck can be tapped around with a soft face hammer. Indicate and spin the chuck and tap to adjust. Sometimes theres enough play in there to get the nose set right. If not, , It's time to machine, file or return the chuck. These things should run within .0005 if your spindle is running true. What's the point of having a collet chuck if it won't hold better than a 3-jaw.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  11. george wilson

    george wilson United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Don't know why I didn't see it before,but the back surface of that chuck looks messed with. WHAT are all those file marks about? That surface should be pristine grinding marks,not all file marks.

    Ray,what do you mean the other parts are meaningless? They all contribute to how true the collet holding surfaces run. I think someone has messed the back up. I am more and more drawn to SEND IT BACK!!!!!!

    O.K.,with that in mind, IF IT WERE DO OR DIE,I'd chuck a VERY TRUE piece of precision ground shafting(NOT DRILL ROD!!!) in a collet-the LARGEST size possible that will go clear through the collet. Clamp the protruding rod in the FRONT end into a 4 jaw chuck. The collet chuck would be facing the 4 jaw. First having removed the D4 pins. I also would have FIRST taken a light grind with a GOOD tool post grinder across the face of the 4 jaw jaws in insure parallelism. Otherwise something held close to the chuck could indicate true,but away from the chuck it could waggle.

    Having prepared the 4 jaw to maximum parallelism,chuck your precision ground rod. There must be enough room allowed to get an indicator between them. You MUST get the rod indicated to .0001" if you want your collet chuck to be that accurate. And,don't forget to use a collet that is KNOWN TO BE TRUE. Have any Hardinges?

    Take a very light grind across the rear end of the chuck until it JUST cleans up. Remember,you first had to make sure the mating surfaces of the spindle and chuck did work,and you don't want to change that. You might get away with taking A FEW THOU off the back of the chuck. I am concerned that the chuck might then not mate up. As stubborn as I am,I'd carefully remove the whole assembly,turn it around,and with thin blue,check it against the spindle and re grind he taper as necessary after truing the back surface with those file marks.

    I dunno,I think it really would be best to send it back.

    Any argument to my last procedure here? With the low forces of grinding,I doubt rigidity would be a problem. But,I stress,use a GOOD tool post grinder. And an ACCURATE piece of precision ground shafting. Drill rod looks nice,but it has lobes on it and it just isn't good enough. My favorite grinder is my new Themac.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  12. StuNY

    StuNY United States Steel Registered Member

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    thayne_1 likes this.
  13. george wilson

    george wilson United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I bought a Bison for the shop at work. I got it to hold to .0001" believe it of not. To get it to hold that accurately,it came down in the end to selectively torquing the already REAL TIGHT bolts holding it to the backing plate I mounted it to.

    Things can get strange when working to those extremely tight tolerances. So many things have to be right when achieving that kind of accuracy.

    I have not had one of these Asian collet chucks,nor do I have the need for one. My HLVH at home is a giant collet chuck!!:) And,I have a Cushman that is for the 16" lathe. It uses a larger type collet that can reach 1 1/2" dia. stuff.

    I did read an article where a guy bought an Asian chuck. It was pretty full of chips and trash when he took it apart. IIRC,it did better when he cleaned all the junk out of it. I don't recall how true it ran in the first place,though. Some of the chucks being mentioned here are totally out of any reasonable tolerance. I can't see that cleaning the junk out of this chuck would make a huge difference,but he could try it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  14. CNC Dude

    CNC Dude United States Active User Active Member

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    Will be tough to give you an actual brand, but I think I can offer a category such as "IMPORT". I bought it on eBay and you can see the posting here:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/5C-Collets-...w-/321217843874?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

    It is an eStore so I am thinking this link will be alive for quite a while.

    I think I will return this unit. The reason why I need a Collet Chuck is because it is one of the ways to hold a shoulder screw that I need to machine. Since I wasn't able to do it as intended, I changed the design and was able to get the job done.

    It will cost me about $40 on S&H to close this behind me, if the seller honors the return. So if all works out, I will have learned a $40 lesson which can be coded as:

    if ((lucky == true) && (your_luck == ONE_TRILLION_INFINITY))
    {
    precision = IMPORT;
    accuracy = IMPORT;
    }
    else
    {
    you_are_screwed = true;
    kiss_your_money_goodbye = true;
    how_much_time_did_you_waste = UNKNOWN;
    }

    Sorry, I am a programmer ;-)
     
  15. Ed T

    Ed T United States Active User Active Member

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    Returning it is an option, but the postage is probably a lot and, if you want another from the same place, you'll have to pay postage on the second one too. If you choose that path, I'd put a secret mark on the returned chuck just to be sure you don't get the same one back.
    If I had to fix it myself (and I'm not nearly as expert as many on this forum) I would first determine if the runout is eccentric where the CL of the collet is parallel to, but not coincident with the axis of rotation. A bar placed in the collet would give the same runout along its length. Or if the runout is due to the axis of the collet being at an angle to the axis of rotation in which case the bar would swing in a conical manner with the runout increasing as you move away from the collet. In case 1, it may be just a matter of loosening the screws holding the halves together and tapping until it line up. Of course, the "match" of the OD on the two halves will no longer line up. In the second case; if you're sure that the OD of the mounting plate runs true, I'd split the chuck and see if there's runout on the face surface of the mounting plate. If so, it's probably not too hard to correct by machining in situ. We're not talking about a lot of material here. While things are split I'd also look for something obvious like a chip between the mating surfaces. Again we're not looking for anything big. If that's not the problem then there must be something tweaked in the collet mounting plate and without holding it and thinking about it for a while, I'm not sure how I'd approach it, but I'm sure there's a way. Hope you can figure it out.
     
  16. xalky

    xalky United States Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    Sometimes a $40 lesson is money well spent. God knows I've had quite a few lessons that cost me way more than that.:bawling:
     
  17. george wilson

    george wilson United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Try paying $75.00 EACH WAY for a messed up guitar described as "Excellent" from Gruhn guitars in Nashville!! I visited their store when called out to the Hall of Fame as a consultant. They knew who I was,and that I was a builder,but still sent me a Gibson Super 400 with 7 or 8 cracks in the lower body where it had obviously been dropped. Those cracks were NOT NEW,either(not dropped in shipping). It also reeked of pot. I'll NEVER buy anything from them again. They are supposed to be big time vintage guitar dealers. He later got caught in a scheme of selling doctored up NEW Les Paul guitars to look old,and sell for SIX figures. Made up by some guy in Florida,IIRC. He claimed he couldn't tell!!! And,he bills himself as a top expert. I don't think he got convicted of fraud in the case,but being a cognoscenti myself in instruments,I can't help wonder WHY he could't tell.

    So far,I have never had a problem on Ebay,though I did have to return a phonograph to California. It was missing parts and the woman just didn't know. No trouble getting money back,and I left no feedback.

    Rant over.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  18. itsme_Bernie

    itsme_Bernie United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Could the chuck have been reassembled with the front half turned 120 degrees off from it's original manufacture? Meaning, if you disassembled the front/back split, and turned it 120 degrees (one bolt hole) and reassembled, I wonder if that would fix it?

    It depends on the order of operations of the original build, and when things were trued up.

    Bernie
     
  19. george wilson

    george wilson United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Anything is possible. That chuck looks messed with to me.
     
  20. itsme_Bernie

    itsme_Bernie United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    THey have learned to make them look pretty, and ground on all visible surfaces. Sadly, they are often not ground square in relation to it's other surfaces. Ready for Ebay!!

    Bernie
     
  21. Ray C

    Ray C United States Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    FWIW, my cheapo collet chuck from shars runs within +/- 0.0002 or better. I like chucks with a separate backplate because they can be tapped into perfect positioning....

    George, what I meant by all other areas not really being important was the outsides and nose of the chuck. The critical part is the how true it is measuring off the 5C taper area. If that wobbles, it needs work. If the outside of the body is off a little, it doesn't matter much. As long as the back is flat and the taper is true it should be OK with the exception that if the whole thing is off center, there could be vibration problems at high speed.


    Ray
     
  22. george wilson

    george wilson United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You might just have gotten lucky,Ray. I have several old those Metal Lathe Acccessory kits. They are so nicely designed! One I have is the loop (loopy?) collet chuck. I have absolutely no need for it,and it isn't as handy to use as a chuck that takes a normal chuck wrench. I'm just a sucker for those kits. I may never get around to putting these kits together. I hope to gain more energy with some injections I hope to begin soon.
     
  23. Ray C

    Ray C United States Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    In a way George, I did get lucky. The chuck is a shars brand but I bought it from a fellow on eBay who was convinced it was bad. He said it needed machining because it wouldn't hold the 6 tenths advertised accuracy. I sent him all kinds of emails explaining how to check and adjust it but, he wanted no part of common sense... So I bought it for 50 bucks. I had a 6" backplate, trued it up, tapped it to center and it's fine. Honestly, I could probably get it closer to zero but I got tired of messing with it. +/- 2 tenths is fine because you never really know how the collets are running anyhow. Usually when I chuck-up a good shaft, it's within a half thou and that covers the bases pretty well.

    That's why I'm concerned about this OP's chuck. Usually, if you check everything from back to front, the problem (or problems) will show right up and it's usually not too hard to set it straight.



    Ray



     
  24. george wilson

    george wilson United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Advertised to 6 tenths is not bad for a Chinese chuck,for sure. You made out for $50.00. I need to get off my duff and true up my big Cushman chuck that takes 513(?) collets(which are rare as hen's teeth,and I have all but 1 or 2.) I bought a whole 2 cubic foot cardboard box of them with the chuck. When I got them sorted out,I found I had a good number of duplicates. I didn't know they were rare,and was going to take back the duplicates. One day in a classified,here are 2 guys BEGGING for those collets. I sold them at a good profit,and enabled someone else to start using THEIR Cushman!!

    So far,I haven't needed to turn stuff larger than 1 1/8"(the largest 5C,but it has a stepped hole). I just use the HLVH. I make 18th. C. thread spools,which are the most unusually delicate things to turn. The originals have edges as sharp as a knife blade,and are made of dogwood. So easy to shatter as they are end grain. I don't know how the old timers did it,but it took me a while to figure out how I could do it. I still can't make mine as sharp as they did!! I swear,I think those old craftsmen tortured each other with the high peaks of quality they got to in making even simple stuff like thread spools.Apparently the ladies back then were aware of the best quality and insisted on it. But man,those little spools are so easily shredded on their edges if everything isn't done just right.

    Don't knock these if you haven't tried to make them!!

    These are a good project to have a collet chuck for.. They also have a hole through them less than 1/8",however they drilled that(probably a small D bit or a small spoon bit.) Can't have been easy for them,but I'm sure the specialists who made them did it with great deftness.

    spools 1jpg.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  25. CNC Dude

    CNC Dude United States Active User Active Member

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    Well, I think I missed my mark on returning this chuck. I guess I made me keep it for two reasons: 1) I would have miserably wasted about $40 in S&H to keep only the knowledge on what a piece of crap I had acquired and 2) it will be a welcomed challenge to true this bastard!

    At the moment I am liking one of the suggested ideas, namely to mount it into a back plate. I will look into how this would be done and if I get stuck will come back and pose the question again. To be honest, I am having a hard time seeing how you add any kind of working set screws from the back when clearly all you have access is the side. I mean, I know how you would add them, but it seems to me you would lose your adjustment if you have to remove the chuck to tighten it into submission. I wonder what would I be missing...
     
  26. badiozam

    badiozam United States Swarf Registered Member

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    Hi there,

    I came across this post and it seems I'm in the same unenviable position and wanted to check in with you to see if you'd had any luck since getting it to true up?

    I have the exact same kind with the exact same problem: the back half is within 0.0005" TIR but the moment I move the DTI over to anywhere on the front half it jumps to like 0.004". I measured both the outside as well as the inside taper and it's the same runout all the way around. When I move the DTI back and forth on the inside of the 5C taper, it gives the same 0.004" TIR regardless of where it is . So I'm convinced it's parallel to the axis of rotation but offset. Did you guys ever have any luck?

    Thanks!
     
  27. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    Sandy
    State:
    Oregon

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    You might take a look at this thread
    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/rant-5c-collets-chuck-d1-4-cam-lock.23838/
     
  28. Larry Hoy

    Larry Hoy United States Iron Registered Member

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    City:
    Oak Grove
    State:
    Missouri

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    I went to the Grizzly tent sale this June there was a PILE of returned 5c chucks
     
  29. Chuck K

    Chuck K United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    City:
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    The only reason I can think of that anyone would want to waste their tme with a collet chuck is because they have a lathe with a small spindle bore. If the machine has 1.375 or bigger bore I wouldn't even consider a collet chuck. The import chucks for the most part have so much runout they defeat the purpose of using a collet. The brand name chucks are priced pretty much out of the hobby market. Drawbars are easy to make, or if the bore is too small, soft jaws work well for multiple parts. Just my .02.
     

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