Looking At A Sg- Cannot Identify It- Any Help? (get A Chuckle Here!)

[silverforgestudio]

OK- so running the roads as I am apt to do for my job I stumbled on a Surface Grinder at a storage warehouse... Long story short (only cost me a coffee and a honeybun...) the owner remembers his dad using it, but doesn't know much more about it other than it is a 3 phase machine. Been on a pallet >18 years. Hasn't been used in >20 years... I am needing a SG as the knife hobby is growing, and like the 24 inch aspect so I can do longer blades... just looking for considerations and a hopeful ID so I can look into parts/stuff for the thing if I drag it home.

He says its a 10x24- but Murphy was along for the ride and so no tape measure.

It has an ancient South Bend mag chuck on it rusted and pitted with a small footprint... not useable without a visit to the land of misfit toys where the angry pixies can run her thru a rehab (maybe a bench top use for a sanding jig for my knife hand working???)

He is asking 1200...

Closest I can find in the IMAGE function on google is a Gallmeyer and Livingston. But no info anywhere ON the machine- the little screenprinted plaques were all scratched out or silver from abrasions... and I don't know where the Serial Nos are on "vintage" stuff

Pics to follow (with questions)

 

[silverforgestudio]

First off- WHY are the "Wings" on this table so long? They are slightly domed, cast iron... and offer no hold-downs or attachment points- What are they for?

So- in Pic one- three things:

1- this dial goes from 0-5- it will not go below zero, and has a definite stop at each number- no smooth action- THIS FEATURE IS UNKNOWN- I cannot find it on any other image I have searched- Any thoughts?

2- this dial has Mic readings on lower portion of shaft- its locked up.

3- Cover switches: these look to control coolant flow and table feed engage/disengage.

Small circle on upper spindle: Something was bolted on here...

Under Table circle: All the Grand rapids or G&L machines that are vintage have the model on the lower unit door- no door... any thoughts on where there may be another Serial number plaque hiding?

Name plate and spindle rotation wiped out (Below)

 

[Bob Korves]

I do not know the brand of the grinder. It looks like it might be a 6x18 by the look of it, but maybe bigger. The wings are to keep the works under the table from getting grit in them at the ends of the travel range. The dial combo that you say is locked up is the height adjustment for the wheel head. The chuck is much smaller than the table, might clean up and work, but essentially has no value. Buying a magnetic chuck to fit a 6x18 grinder will be $200+ for a used one that needs work, $500+++ for a new one. If it is 10x24, you probably cannot afford one that size, but could use a smaller one. The machine has power feeds, at least in X (table left/right) and Z (carriage forward/backward). Yes, Z... Y is up and down... 1. Your 0-5 dial is probably for height fine adjust (.0002"). 2. Height adjustment, looks like it has a fine dial above as well. 3. Probably as you guessed on the switches. The missing part may have been a head mounted wheel dressing tool. The machine probably weighs around 3,000 pounds and the power feeds are probably hydraulically operated, which will almost certainly need considerable work.

Price/value? I would not drive to see it, and would not really want it for free, because of the needed work and the size. And I just finished getting a 1946-1947 6x18 Brown & Sharpe back in good running condition, so I do have a clue. It probably could be made to work, but would take lots of time and a fair amount of money to get it going again. In dollars I would estimate its current value at $90, its scrap value at $60/ton. Moving it will cost more than that. I am not trying to diss the machine or tell you what to do, most old machine rehabs are labors of love and there is no putting a price on that...

The brand does not matter. You will need to identify and source or fabricate anything it needs. I predict you will not find a parts supply source for the machine, even if it is identified.

 

[Bob Korves]

I might also add that a machine like that pushes pretty hard on the word hobby with your knife making. Whatever time and money you spend putting into the grinder project will take away from your knife hobby, though it may become a hobby of its own.

 

[silverforgestudio]

Thank you Bob! Very reality based and all my little red flags are confirmed... I think there will be better opportunities later. I just did not want to miss an gem in the rough due to my own ignorance... and besides- I may get the little mag chuck to toy with!

And I agree about the size being pushing the hobby limits. I am at a phase where I am trying to expand my shop and its capacities.

Kerri

 

[Bob Korves]

Mag chucks work very well for scraping and other operations on thin and/or odd shaped work like gibs. It looks like the chuck is a manually operated one with permanent magnets. It appears to currently be in the "on" position, though the handle can sometimes fit at different angles. If the handle does not work smoothly, and the magnet turn on and off, I might take it for free... Electromagnetic chucks will need a rectifier/controller and a demagnetizer as well.

 

[Bob Korves]

I would think you could surface grind 12" long knife blades plus handle tang on a 12" surface grinder. The handle could be ground separately and the blade will need to be fixtured at alternate angles anyway, which will be separate from grinding the tang. If you can confine your knives to blades under 12" you could use a 6x12 manual surface grinder to do the job. That will be a much common machine and easier to inspect, set a value, move, and find room for in your shop. When you are shopping, a basic surface grinder is a precision spindle with precision ways. Everything else is pretty much just what holds it together. Spindles can be unbelievably pricey to repair, and redoing the ways is a big a fussy project. For grinding knives the ways are not a super big deal, but still important. Make damn sure the spindle is good and test it out or assume it is bad. We can help you with how to evaluate a grinder spindle when the time comes.

If you want a really simple, inexpensive machine that will fit nicely on a bench look at something like this:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-12-Surface-Grinder-w-Stand/G5963
They are simple, single phase, Chinese made machines that are cheap and grind metal. Getting something super accurate or with a mirror finish using one is challenging, but for knife making it should be adequate, with perhaps some additional polishing required. That same grinder is sold under lots of brand names and can sometimes be found quite cheap if you look around.

 

[silverforgestudio]

Thanks again Bob- I will definitely be posting before I buy- Like all scavenger hunts- this one continues- the fellow who owns the SG in question thinks its worth something even though he has no paperwork, no knowledge of what make/model/year and only says he remembers it running but no reason why it was retired... the mag chuck is a fools errand to think he would let it just walk away (I wish!) BUT.... that being said- I will be calling him Saturday so we shall see where it goes!

As for confining the knife sizes- most of my blades are at 7-10 inches. My largest blade is a 13.5 inch butcher (server/butcher wedding set pictured in Teak case w ebony splines to match the handles):

This set is a carver/butcher wedding set of ATS-34 with recycled ebony (guitar fingerboard off cuts) scales.
(sorry about the lighting- my canon was on the fritz and had to resort to the phone camera)

These are full tang with no taper- but I am designing at the request of a local client a 14 inch with dual distal tapers- so I'm looking for a few options over the 12 inch range.

The machine I eventually use will have the stone removed and a 2 x 72 belt in its place with tensioner and idler pulleys. Reason is I go through these belts like candy so order them in bulk. Also they don't load up as fast while being easy to change so I can quickly move through the grits. This is a large reason for me wanting an older machine so I can not worry about spending $$$ on a new machine only to wreck the warranty the moment I remove the wheel and adapt the spindle.

I used a friends SG for these- PITA as the tips were off his 12" mag chuck and constantly flexing- resorted to laying them on the diagonal and had handle hanging off (covered by epoxy/scales) and had to do a LOT of hand touch up...

 

[Bob Korves]

If you want, offer to send him a link to this thread. I would be happy to give you my email and phone # as well, if he wants an unbiased opinion from someone who actually knows something about those machines.

 

[silverforgestudio]

I will touch base w you via PM tomorrow then- thanks