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Long stock whipping in spindle

Discussion in 'A BEGINNER'S FORUM (Learn How To Machine Here!)' started by AGCB97, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. AGCB97

    AGCB97 United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    What do you use to keep long (4') rod from rattling and whipping in spindle. It sticks out about 20" and is 5/8 in a 1 3/8 spindle. Mounted in collet chuck. Not dangerous at 400 RPM but annoying!
    Thanks
    Aaron
     
  2. seasicksteve

    seasicksteve United States Active Member Active Member

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    An outboard spider might help things a bit.
     
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  3. Bill Gruby

    Bill Gruby United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I fit a flopper stopper over the rear of the spindle. A flopper stopper is a nylon piece with a thru hole slightly larger than the stock. This will stabilize the stock and stop the whipping. The fit to the spindle should not be loose.

    "Billy G"
     
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  4. jim18655

    jim18655 United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have a #12 copper wire hanging from the ceiling that I bend a loop in to support the free end of the rod.
     
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  5. chips&more

    chips&more United States Active User Active Member

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    You say not dangerous? I would be very careful!!!!!! I have personally seen bar stock that was hanging out the end of the headstock not supported. And in the blink of an eye it whipped/bent into a 90° and started to lift the lathe off the floor when the stock turned that way. I needed a change in underwear after that too!
     
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  6. boostin53

    boostin53 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Yeah I wouldn't say it's not dangerous. I personally haven't seen the bad effects of something like that, and I hope I never do. I would build a spider on the rear of the spindle. There are plenty of free plans for an outboard spider. Anything to help support that 20" of stock hanging out the rear is better than nothing.
     
  7. pdentrem

    pdentrem Active User Active Member

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    I have seen the whipper! It sure grabs ones attention.
    Pierre
     
  8. savarin

    savarin Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I use lengths of rope from the ceiling. It worked on 3 feet of 6mm stainless hanging out the end, supported in 2 places.
     
  9. Reddinr

    Reddinr United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A little off topic but I saw a video a year or so ago where the operator had put a hole in the wall behind his lathe head-stock and he supported a shaft on the other side of the wall! It was one of the guys that does machining for a living. It was not a whipper (hopefully) as it was about 2 or 3" in diameter I think. His support was a floor-stand that had bearings at the top like a steady rest (if I recall right).

    I had to turn the ends on some 1/2" rods that were 7 feet long. I supported them with a triangular shaped support made from 2x4s that was temporarily nailed to the adjacent wall studs. I drilled a little bit bigger hole in the right spot after it was in place, using the extended-out rod to place it at right spot. I used the spiders on the lathe too. It worked pretty well for the short time it took to make the support.
     
  10. Wreck™Wreck

    Wreck™Wreck United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    An easy method it to make a spindle guide from plastic or aluminum.
    Turn the OD slightly smaller then the spindle bore and drill it slightly larger then the stock, drill and tap a hole for a set screw to hold it in place at the back end of the spindle.
    This works a charm.

    Like so
    spindleplug-M.jpg
     
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  11. Dan_S

    Dan_S Active User Active Member

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    at 4' you are going to need more than a spider, you are going to need some kind or support or roller system.

    You might want something like the rollers Keith Fenner uses, his personal one can be mounted to a stand to support long stock.


    you can see one of them in action in this video around 3:30.
     
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  12. boostin53

    boostin53 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Not questioning your knowledge at all, and you more than likely know more than I do about machining. But if I understood the OP correctly, 20" is sticking out the back, not 4'. A spider at the rear would support the back end of the stock, still leaving 20" sticking out, but supported. As opposed to the entire length being unsupported from the collet chuck.

    Would that work? Sure there are safer ways to do it, but it would still work, right? Again, not challenging your knowledge, just trying to get clarification for myself and maybe others.
     
  13. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Vice President Staff Member Administrator

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    In that situation, I'll admit to just stuffing the spindle around the material with shop towels. It works as long as your speed isn't too high. Pack them in tight and they will keep the stock from whipping. With only 20" hanging out, that's not too bad. If you keep it pretty well centered, the spinning doesn't have as much strength as it does once it gets off to the side, all the way to the spindle ID for instance.
    Now if it were a regular thing, it's good to build a spider and or an outboard support. I placed my mill in such a way that I can use the table to mount an outboard support for one of the lathes (3 1/4" spindle hole). I intend to build an actual steady rest of some sort to bolt to the mill someday.......
     
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  14. stupoty

    stupoty Active User Active Member

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    if I read that right it's 20" out the chuck and 4' out the back of the head stock. I've seen a lot of photos of outboard bar stock supports for capstan lathes that look quite simple.

    The whipping thing is amazing how quick a piece of bar stock suddenly gets a 90 degree bend in it :) i've only had it happen with very slender steel and also a long bit of nylon, the nylon experience was hilarious but would have been totally not hilarious if it was steel :)

    I think someone posted a while back about a machine operator getting taken to the grate machine shop in the sky this way.

    Stuart
     
  15. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A little off topic here. A place I worked at about 15 years ago. They had a couple of Mazak m5's they ran long bars on. One job they stuck the stock out the back end and had about 4 foot sticking out because they had the rest of it sticking out the front as far as the tailstock would go. Material was about 1-1/2 dia. Anyways day shift operator had it set up and ran it no more than about 600 RPM without it whipping too much. The machine had a 3-jaw chuck on the out board end of the machine just for holding the material steady. Night shift came on started running the parts, decided sometime on his shift to speed it up, 600 RPM wasn't fast enough. Well somewhere between 2000 and 2500 RPM it got away from him. The operator had walked away when he hit cycle start. By the time he got it shut down, that bar had bent 90 degrees and beat the heck out of the back of the machine. Destroyed every piece of sheet metal on that Mazak, dis-lodge the headstock from the bed, beat a hole in the concrete epoxy coated floor, took out ceiling tiles and insulation. When the shaft finally broke off, it flew across the shop into a sheet rock wall about 200 foot away. Wonder nobody was killed. Why is it, that these things happen on night shift?

    Enough on my story telling for the night.
     
  16. Bill Gruby

    Bill Gruby United States Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You really don't want to see it happen. Once on an 8 spindle screw machine only one of the 8 whipped. Those bars were 10 feet long. It took a cutting torch to clear the mess. When the one whipped I doubt I it was 2 or 3 seconds before the tie up occurred.

    "Billy G"
     
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  17. AGCB97

    AGCB97 United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    As boostin53 said
    " But if I understood the OP correctly, 20" is sticking out the back, not 4'. A spider at the rear would support the back end of the stock, still leaving 20" sticking out, but supported. As opposed to the entire length being unsupported from the collet chuck. "

    This is correct and I used an old ER collet, slid in to the back of the spindle and held in place with tape. But I will make one of those dedicated ones with 3 setscrews.

    I was just wondering about a more convenient way of doing it.

    I should not have put the word "whipping" in my question as it is only rattling!

    Thanks
     
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  18. 12bolts

    12bolts Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    In the past I have just drilled a hole in a piece of timber and clamped that at the right height to a saw horse. Lots of temporary ways to fix that problem

    Cheers Phil
     
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  19. Dan_S

    Dan_S Active User Active Member

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    I just miss read the post.

    However even at 20" I would seriously start considering some external support, as that's over 30 times the diameter. With that kind of stick-out even if it doesn't bend and become a dangerous wip, just the flexing it will undergo could effect surface finish.
     
  20. boostin53

    boostin53 United States Active Member Active Member

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    And that's why I didn't question your knowledge! I didn't even think of that!
     
  21. Kevin J

    Kevin J United States Active Member Active Member

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    Phil,

    In my opinion your solution is a simple and expeditious solution that I hope I will remember when needed.

    Thanks,
    Kevin J
     
  22. BGHansen

    BGHansen United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    My dad was a high school shop teacher for 30 years. Only had 2 kids get hurt during that time. One was with this situation, student had something like a 3/8" steel rod chucked up with 3' sticking out of the head stock. He had "V" cradles made up from the welding class; base was a cross of channel, vertical steel pipe with a nut welded at the top, used a bolt to lock to a vertically adjustable piece of pipe fit inside the one with the base welded to it. There was a "V" welded at the top, couple of pieces of 1" CRS rounds. Idea was to set the support under the stock and adjust the height, then start the lathe at slow speed (he had Clausing 5914's in the shop, variable speed) and take it up to speed. The student didn't use the outboard support and had the rod do a 90 bend and whopped him in the shoulder, lucky it didn't hit him in the head. He had a nice bruise. My dad said the lathe was vibrating across the floor until he hit the master power switch.

    Bruce
     
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  23. BRIAN

    BRIAN Italy Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Mounted on the bench behind my lathe is an old small drill press. that has a slide on table to hold the to hand tools. it also serves as a tapping jig---
    Work steady using the fixed steady from the lathe ---mount for the dividing head when I need to index the lathe chuck.

    P1013429.JPG
    Swing out table

    P1013427.JPG
    Tapping jig

    P1013428.JPG
    Steady

    7-set up for cutting rachets.JPG
    Dividing head mount


    Brian.
     
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  24. bfd

    bfd United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    at the back of the spindle we used to wrap duct tape around the part ind insert into the spindle bore keeps it very still in a pinch bill
     
  25. Wreck™Wreck

    Wreck™Wreck United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Used a bar support today, 94" X 1" bars with 8 TPI threads on each end, 9 parts. It rests on the floor behind the lathe.
    i-QV2ZbN3.jpg
     
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