Is this a 3 Phase Static Converter?

Uglydog

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I stumbled on a Wells 8M where I purchase my steel (an old farm).
They couldn't remember when it last ran, or the details of where it came from. Been in the barn next to other unused farm machinery.
$100, if I promised to do some more fab work for them. He threw in 4each 600lb casters.
It looks much better now than it did when I picked it up.
It has coolant tray and a pump.
Everything seems to spin. The Blade guides need serious cleaning up, and likely new bearings.
Peerless 220v, 3phase, 2.4amp motor.

Anyway....

The electrical line in runs to this box (mentally rotate the pic 45" Clockwise).
Wires out of the box run to the coolant pump and motor.
There is no plug on the saw.

If it would be helpful I can remove the capacitors(?) and let you know what is printed on them.

Is this a static converter? Can I hook this up directly to 220v 1ph?
Or is it just a 3ph starter switch?
Something else?

Any input would be helpful.

Thank you,
Daryl
MN

IMG_0766.JPG IMG_0765.JPG
 
Last edited:
I'm having a hard time seeing how it's wired up, but it could be a static converter
but i can't say for sure.
make sure you discharge the caps before you attempt sticking your hands in there!!
i would venture to guess it is if the motor is 3 phase though

If you were to put single phase 220 v to the lower 3 wire(conductor) cable , black 1 leg of the 220 white or red will go to the other 220 hot leg.
green would be used for ground

the upper wire coming into the box will have 4 conductors if it is a static converter, that goes to the 3 phase motor if i'm seeing it correctly.
on leg will not measure voltage until the contactor is pulled in, then 3 phases will come out of the upper wires !!
 
Nice saw, your inventory of equipment is growing! I can't help with wiring I'm color blind, when I do wiring I have my wife tell me the colors and then I tape the names on them so I can make the connections. I try to stay on her good side while wiring.
 
I stumbled on a Wells 8M where I purchase my steel (an old farm).
They couldn't remember when it last ran, or the details of where it came from. Been in the barn next to other unused farm machinery.
$100, if I promised to do some more fab work for them. He threw in 4each 600lb casters.
It looks much better now than it did when I picked it up.
It has coolant tray and a pump.
Everything seems to spin. The Blade guides need serious cleaning up, and likely new bearings.
Peerless 220v, 3phase, 2.4amp motor.

Anyway....

The electrical line in runs to this box (mentally rotate the pic 45" Clockwise).
Wires out of the box run to the coolant pump and motor.
There is no plug on the saw.

If it would be helpful I can remove the capacitors(?) and let you know what is printed on them.

Is this a static converter? Can I hook this up directly to 220v 1ph?
Or is it just a 3ph starter switch?
Something else?

Any input would be helpful.

Thank you,
Daryl
MN


I think this is a static convertor but I am unsure of the brand, might go to google images, and page thru the pictures, and see if you can find a match. This is not a 3 phase motor contactor/starter set up. We have 480 v 3 phase at work, and I connect them all the time. The normal 3 phase starter contactor has a thermal protection device, old ones have three heaters (sized to the motor), attached to the protection block, and when they get to hot they will disconnect the motor legs from the line. The new ones we have are electronic, and have a couple of adjustment wheels for settings, reset, test etc. Very close to the one's in a lot of these smaller lathes we have, only way bigger! The motor starter, unless it is a full manual setup, has a contactor also, basically a huge relay only it has 3 legs, they use many control voltages for the coil that controls the contactor, on most setups it is a lower voltage, 24v, 120v, 240v, etc, also some can be ordered ac or dc voltage. I have never seen a capacitor, in any commercial 3 phase motor starter! Bob in Oregon

- - - Updated - - -

I think this is a static convertor but I am unsure of the brand, might go to google images, and page thru the pictures, and see if you can find a match. This is not a 3 phase motor contactor/starter set up. We have 480 v 3 phase at work, and I connect them all the time. The normal 3 phase starter contactor has a thermal protection device, old ones have three heaters (sized to the motor), attached to the protection block, and when they get to hot they will disconnect the motor legs from the line. The new ones we have are electronic, and have a couple of adjustment wheels for settings, reset, test etc. Very close to the one's in a lot of these smaller lathes we have, only way bigger! The motor starter, unless it is a full manual setup, has a contactor also, basically a huge relay only it has 3 legs, they use many control voltages for the coil that controls the contactor, on most setups it is a lower voltage, 24v, 120v, 240v, etc, also some can be ordered ac or dc voltage. I have never seen a capacitor, in any commercial 3 phase motor starter! Bob in Oregon

Here is a picture of a basic 3 phase motor starter. Bob

BTW when the heaters trip out, there is a little dog in there that is connected in various ways to a RESET button, when you push the RESET they dog back in and connect the power again, after the thermal heaters trip.

images.jpg
 
also some can be ordered ac or dc voltage. I have never seen a capacitor, in any commercial 3 phase motor starter! Bob in Oregon[/QUOTE]

HI Bob
The Phase A Matic uses a capacitor to give the 3 phase motor a one time shot of DC voltage to provide high potential difference to get the motor started, after the motor starts, the 3 rd leg is generated by the rotating motor and the phasamatic, then stores the capacitor charge to start the motor the next time it is called to do so.
There are a few other brands that operate from the same principle.
 
BTW when the heaters trip out, there is a little dog in there that is connected in various ways to a RESET button, when you push the RESET they dog back in and connect the power again, after the thermal heaters trip.

Perhaps that is what is going on with my Gisholt.
She has a 10hp 3phase.
She starts fine, runs well.
Then she shuts down.
Seems to restart well. However, doesn't run to long before she shuts down again.
I figured it had something to do with electrical demand in the area as I started having trouble when it got hot and most homeowners started their Air Conditioners.

How can I best test to learn if this is the problem?

Thank you,
Daryl
MN
 
Perhaps that is what is going on with my Gisholt.
She has a 10hp 3phase.
She starts fine, runs well.
Then she shuts down.
Seems to restart well. However, doesn't run to long before she shuts down again.
I figured it had something to do with electrical demand in the area as I started having trouble when it got hot and most homeowners started their Air Conditioners.

How can I best test to learn if this is the problem?

Thank you,
Daryl
MN

Daryl,
I do a lot of standard 3 phase stuff but not very much with these “static converters”. The Ulma Doc sent me a e-mail and we had a good chat about this. May I suggest you Google the phase-a-matic site it goes into these in detail. Keep in mind what the site is saying about these they are for light or moderate use. This saw I would say would be a good candidate for the device, and I say that is what is in the picture you posted, just unsure of the manufacturer. Ulma Doc is right the normal 220 VAC single phase should be green is ground, black and white are the 220 VAC legs, could be black and red for the (input legs). He gave me a overview on how they work and the site also does a pretty good explanation. The motor starts on the capacitors, like a regular single phase motor without the centrifugal switch. Then the way I read it the capacitors disconnect, and the windings in the motor you are running, somehow make the third leg, or keep it running. So bottom line here is the 3 phase motor is running, but not on true 3 phase, and not at full power! So the site talks about various motors and how much it will de-rate them, it also talks about mechanical means to decrease the load on the motor, Example: Changing pulleys. Gears, etc.
The only options I run on a everyday basis are:
480 VAC 3 Phase
220 VAC Single Phase
220 VAC 3 Phase motors running on a VFD drive.
Now by the looks of things on the site you are getting quite a bit of iron, also no offense but, you sound like myself where you are digging up a lot of buy’s , and deals, that’s a good thing! You may want to consider setting up 4 or 5 machines, off a dedicated 3 phase branch setup/system. You can also check with the local power company, sometimes good, sometimes bad, if 3 phase is on the street, it could be doable, most houses do not have the 3 phase leg, even on the highline feeding the transformer to the homes. So they usually have one of two things going, you pay the entire cost to get the highline down the street or wherever the 3 phase stopped closest to your shop. Sometimes they will work with you if you can guarantee you will be using a certain amount of power, usually if the $2500-$5000 a month range! Your state may be different but that’s the way it goes here in Oregon. The phase-a-matic site also talks about using there controller to slave another motor onto the line and make the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] leg of the three phase of the “Slave Non Operating Motor”. With that setup you have a actual 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] leg, 3 phase system! I would be on the look out for some 3 phase disconnects, in the future. That way when you wire your shop, you don’t have too but it is nice to have a disconnect at each machine, thermal overloads are nice also. The disconnects look pretty much like any you see in a home, but there will be 3 feed wire L1,L2,L3, and normally, a ground buss bar on one side. If the disconnect has thermal overloads in it will have 3 heaters in it one for each leg, the each usually have 2 flat head screws on each end. If its electronic it will usually have a couple of small dials trimmer pots, for the amp setting, and usually a Red reset button. So to summarize this the only to ways I know to get actual 3 phase power are: 1 A rotary Phase Converter 2. 3 Phase off the highline.
 
On the other problem of the machine shutting down . You need to figure out what kind of converter do you have and what is the rating? Also do you know how to use a inductive amp meter, and do you have one? Remember the 3 phase motors start and run due to the rotation of the phases, that is why when you swap any two leads the motor will rotate the opposite direction! But due to the nature of this motor and wiring design, if you have good connections, and good windings in the motor, the amp draw on each leg should be very close to the same on each leg! My 30 HP Quincy compressor would be like 47.1 , 47.4 , 46.9, they are not all PERFECT but pretty equal. So when one leg is dropping out the other 2 will try to make it up, and that can cause too much load and trip thermals, fuses etc. So you need to check all three legs to your motor running, record the readings, and then see 1 are they close to the same? 2 If yes are the running right at the limit of you 3 phase converter? IE 14.9 on a 15 amp static converter?
Bob in Oregon

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps that is what is going on with my Gisholt.
She has a 10hp 3phase.
She starts fine, runs well.
Then she shuts down.
Seems to restart well. However, doesn't run to long before she shuts down again.
I figured it had something to do with electrical demand in the area as I started having trouble when it got hot and most homeowners started their Air Conditioners.

How can I best test to learn if this is the problem?

Thank you,
Daryl
MN

I posted some help in another post, but one more thing, you may want to test the input voltage to your converter. May also help to check it at various times during the day when you think the demand will be the most. Might help to make sure you have pretty steady input power to the converter!

Bob in Oregon

- - - Updated - - -

Daryl,
I do a lot of standard 3 phase stuff but not very much with these “static converters”. The Ulma Doc sent me a e-mail and we had a good chat about this. May I suggest you Google the phase-a-matic site it goes into these in detail. Keep in mind what the site is saying about these they are for light or moderate use. This saw I would say would be a good candidate for the device, and I say that is what is in the picture you posted, just unsure of the manufacturer. Ulma Doc is right the normal 220 VAC single phase should be green is ground, black and white are the 220 VAC legs, could be black and red for the (input legs). He gave me a overview on how they work and the site also does a pretty good explanation. The motor starts on the capacitors, like a regular single phase motor without the centrifugal switch. Then the way I read it the capacitors disconnect, and the windings in the motor you are running, somehow make the third leg, or keep it running. So bottom line here is the 3 phase motor is running, but not on true 3 phase, and not at full power! So the site talks about various motors and how much it will de-rate them, it also talks about mechanical means to decrease the load on the motor, Example: Changing pulleys. Gears, etc.
The only options I run on a everyday basis are:
480 VAC 3 Phase
220 VAC Single Phase
220 VAC 3 Phase motors running on a VFD drive.
Now by the looks of things on the site you are getting quite a bit of iron, also no offense but, you sound like myself where you are digging up a lot of buy’s , and deals, that’s a good thing! You may want to consider setting up 4 or 5 machines, off a dedicated 3 phase branch setup/system. You can also check with the local power company, sometimes good, sometimes bad, if 3 phase is on the street, it could be doable, most houses do not have the 3 phase leg, even on the highline feeding the transformer to the homes. So they usually have one of two things going, you pay the entire cost to get the highline down the street or wherever the 3 phase stopped closest to your shop. Sometimes they will work with you if you can guarantee you will be using a certain amount of power, usually if the $2500-$5000 a month range! Your state may be different but that’s the way it goes here in Oregon. The phase-a-matic site also talks about using there controller to slave another motor onto the line and make the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] leg of the three phase of the “Slave Non Operating Motor”. With that setup you have a actual 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] leg, 3 phase system! I would be on the look out for some 3 phase disconnects, in the future. That way when you wire your shop, you don’t have too but it is nice to have a disconnect at each machine, thermal overloads are nice also. The disconnects look pretty much like any you see in a home, but there will be 3 feed wire L1,L2,L3, and normally, a ground buss bar on one side. If the disconnect has thermal overloads in it will have 3 heaters in it one for each leg, the each usually have 2 flat head screws on each end. If its electronic it will usually have a couple of small dials trimmer pots, for the amp setting, and usually a Red reset button. So to summarize this the only to ways I know to get actual 3 phase power are: 1 A rotary Phase Converter 2. 3 Phase off the highline.
 
On the other problem of the machine shutting down . You need to figure out what kind of converter do you have and what is the rating? Also do you know how to use a inductive amp meter, and do you have one? Remember the 3 phase motors start and run due to the rotation of the phases, that is why when you swap any two leads the motor will rotate the opposite direction! But due to the nature of this motor and wiring design, if you have good connections, and good windings in the motor, the amp draw on each leg should be very close to the same on each leg! My 30 HP Quincy compressor would be like 47.1 , 47.4 , 46.9, they are not all PERFECT but pretty equal. So when one leg is dropping out the other 2 will try to make it up, and that can cause too much load and trip thermals, fuses etc. So you need to check all three legs to your motor running, record the readings, and then see 1 are they close to the same? 2 If yes are the running right at the limit of you 3 phase converter? IE 14.9 on a 15 amp static converter?
Bob in Oregon

- - - Updated - - -



I posted some help in another post, but one more thing, you may want to test the input voltage to your converter. May also help to check it at various times during the day when you think the demand will be the most. Might help to make sure you have pretty steady input power to the converter!

Bob in Oregon

Let me clarify one thing, you could run twist lock, 4 wire plugs to each machine, if they are all the same amperage, they probably wont be! So I would suggest a fused disconnect at each machine, with thermals is the best to protect each machine, sorry its a little more up front but way better latter on. When people upgrade machine's a lot of times they go from the wall out and just toss the old disconnects!

Bob in Oregon

- - - Updated - - -

Oops just so you know the inductive ampmeter has a loop and goes around each line one at a time to read the AMPS, so the 46 and 47 numbers are the AMP load on each line. Bob
 
To add to Bob's summirization...

The third leg in Daryl's system is being induced by the motor while the motor is running.
single phase power is supplied to the motor at all times the contactor is pulled in, then the 3rd leg is induced.
the 3rd leg will have lower voltage than the other 2, if there is not a capacitor on leg 3 for balance, you may wish to install one.
i can help you identify, choose, and install a cap for this purpose should you need any help

there are 5 ways i know how to get 3 phase power..
1) good old 3 phase supply from the power company
2) 3 phase transformer operated by single phase
3) RPC, single phase input, 3 phase output
4) VFD, single phase input 3 phase output
5) Inversion, non variable single phase in 3 phase out without frequency control.

there are probably others but none come to mind right now.

I'm happy to help out, drop me a line if you need further assistance
 
Let me clarify one thing, you could run twist lock, 4 wire plugs to each machine, if they are all the same amperage, they probably wont be! So I would suggest a fused disconnect at each machine, with thermals is the best to protect each machine, sorry its a little more up front but way better latter on. When people upgrade machine's a lot of times they go from the wall out and just toss the old disconnects!

Bob and Ulma Doc,
Thank you for your considered response.
I believe I actually understood it (that is not to suggest that I could do it). With the exception of the above.

Can I run 4 wire twist locks and still have "thermals"? I've got a large box full of 3phase and 1phase twist lock plugs.
Is a "thermal" a fuse?
Is a "fused disconnect" a small sub panel with a circuit breaker?

I've got an Ohm Meter, a gift from an electronics guy many years ago, supposedly a good one. No idea how to use it, other than for continuity checks.
I'd like to get the Gisholt electrical problem resolved. Up until May I could run it all day without any interruptions.


Thank you,
Daryl
MN
 
Wired her up.
After the dust cloud cleared from the motor vents (hmm... doesn't smell like smoke), she purrs like a kitten.

Thanks for your help!!

Daryl
MN
 
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