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Help With A Hammond #4 Voltage

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by Lordbeezer, Dec 8, 2016.

  1. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Hello..picked up a Hammond #4 grinder.the motor tag is missing.tag on back of machine has wiring for low or high voltage.motor has 3 wires.looks like new inside.single phase or 3 phase?voltage?was owned by US government..breaker box has 3 terminals.line/load..not marked..line/load...has forward off reverse switch..this machine has shown me how much I don't know..any ideas..thanks
     
  2. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    if you can post pictures that would help out.
    are the wires available colored?
    a single phase motor may have a capacitor on its outside diameter
    three phase motors running on 3 phase, will not usually use a capacitor

    some possible problems..
    115v single phase will be low voltage, 220/230v single phase will be considered high voltage
    220/230v 3 phase will be low voltage, 440/460 would be considered high voltage
     
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  3. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    I'll try to post pictures tomorrow .the three wires coming off windings are all black.no capacitor.thanks for your reply
     
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  4. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg I'm guessing this is a 3 wire 3 phase motor..please advise if you think it is or not.gonna try to post pictures for the first time.thanks
     
  5. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Don't know why pictures posted twice
     
  6. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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  7. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    it's a 3 phase motor.
    it appears that someone has tried to scratch out the low voltage connection diagram, it may be indicative of a high voltage rewind- but i can't say for sure
    the best way is to hook up some 3 phase power to it and see if she spins up on the supply you have available.
    if the grinder doesn't spin up, you may need to get a 3 phase transformer, or otherwise produce 3 phases in the correct voltage
     
  8. Chipper5783

    Chipper5783 Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Looks like 220 / 440 3 phase.
     
  9. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks for the info..how is the cheapest,maybe not the best way to put 3 phase to this to see if motor works.vfd?converter? Thanks.rather be working on my 10k gap bed but couldn't pass this grinder up
     
  10. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    A static converter or rpc can easily be made from spare components and a spare 3 phase motor
    I'd consider a rpc due to the unknown voltage of the motor you are trying to start
    There is a possibility of damaging a sensitive VFD with mismatching motor voltage and current requirements
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  11. Chipper5783

    Chipper5783 Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You want the cheapest way - just to test it? Okay, but there are some obvious risks! Just run it on single phase, that is all an RPC is doing. The idler motor is running on single phase.

    1. Connect the motor per the low voltage arrangement on the motor plate.
    2. Get ready to connect 240V single phase on any two of the motor leads (doesn't matter which two). Make sure you have a switch and are running through a 15 amp breaker. Clip a current meter onto one of the supply leads.
    3. Spin the grinder up manually, which way does not matter. You need to get it going pretty good, at least half the rated speed. How you get it spinning is up to you.
    4. Energize and it should come right up to rated speed. Take note of the current draw, if it is above nameplate , shut it off. If the current is way below name plate, the you probably have the wrong voltage.

    Let us know hoe it works out.
     
  12. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    On the connection tag it shows 9 wires? I only have 3.how would I wire for low voltage? At the forward-reverse switch there's 6 wires.thanks very much for helpful info.i do have a spare 2hp 3phase motor..if I knew how to wire for low voltage I'm thinking will spin up grinder like chipper advised and see what happens.thanks
     
  13. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    bacause ther is only 3 wires, that indicates that the motor has ben tapped for single voltage use.
    that voltage will either be 220/230 or 440/460
    the three wires are all that is necessary to provide power to the motor.
    if you change the phase on 2 conductors the motor will run in reverse

    this motor may be difficult to start by hand.
    i'm assuming you don't have 440/460v supply....
    you can wrap a length of rope to the motor shaft and pull the rope like you'd start a lawnmower, while having single phase power connected to the motor.
    if the motor runs without strange noises and seems to run well, you have found the correct operating voltage
    if the motor sounds like it is laboring to run or makes heat or just doesn't sound right, you may have a motor wired for high voltage
    if the motor kicks your breaker, that also may be a clue as to incorrect voltage- the amps go up if voltage is low
     
  14. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks for info ulma Doctor ...I know I'm asking very basic questions.was going to run 220 to motor.hook up all three wires from supply to motor or just two hot??..this 3 phase is not sinking in..worked for ford dealers 27 years trouble shooting electrical problems..was simple compared to this..going to install pulley on motor shaft.use pony motor to spin..thanks for your time
     
  15. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    you are welcome anytime,
    you only have 2 hot legs, so that's all you hook up to the motor.
    the 3rd motor wire will have no other external connections to the other 2 motor wires
    3 phase electricity is somewhat different than automotive electricity, but all of the same laws apply regardless of AC current or DC current flowing
    if you worked on Ford electrical systems, you undoubtedly have the mental capacity to grasp anything you need to know about 3 phase power, with a little study
    here is a start....


    i'm more than happy to try to answer any questions you may have in regards to learning about what you don't understand :)
     
  16. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks for reply..have wired two hot off 220 line at junction box to two motor leads.spun motor with my dc motor on my band saw..grinder runs...but kinda slow..like maybe 1/4-1/3 speed..runs same direction forward or reverse..maybe cause turning same direction with band saw motor?.motor not getting hot.is grinder motor 440v??if so how can I speed up rpm..thanks for info on 3 phase site..will study tonight
     
  17. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    the grinder may be wired for 440/460 :(
    if you spun it up with another motor and the grinder did not take off, with single phase applied-
    sad to say, you either have a faulty motor or it is not operating at the correct voltage :(
    the good news is that you can step 230 up to 460 with transformers , and make use of a VFD- but the VFD is not necessary
    the bad news is that there is not really a dirt cheap method of making 460v 3 phase, that i am aware of

    if you have access to any capacitors over 50 uf, you could make a static converter to test the motor that's already in the grinder- it won't produce 460v
     
  18. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    you could also test the motor leads to see if there is fault in the motor.
    using an ohm meter,
    test motor leads to the frame of the grinder, there should be no continuity
    test motor leads by holding the meter lead on a motor wire, then to another motor wire, the should be low resistance shown on the meter- record findings
    move one test lead to the 3 rd motor wire and note the ohm reading, there should be low resistance, record findings
    now you can move the first test lead to the 2nd wire position and observe the meter reading, low resistance should be indicated, record findings
    if you observe the recorded the readings, they should be very close if not equal in resistance for a 3 phase motor in top operating condition
     
  19. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    If all else fails, find you a electric motor shop and take the motor assembly there. They can quickly check and test the motor and see what voltage is required for the motor and if it is shorted out. They can also rewire the motor for the voltage needed if you wanted them to do so. It will always be a 3ph motor it cannot be changed to a 1ph motor.
     
  20. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    All three ohm out at 47--47.5..motor runs smooth.not getting hot..runs slow to me..if I added the third leg it would run higher rpm? Thanks for reply.
     
  21. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Adding juice to the third leg will not make it run faster. It runs slow, how slow?

    You need to do some researching on Hammond grinders. There's a very good chance this grinder is more of a lapper than grinder, that is set up with a diamond lap for lapping freshly sharpen carbide tools. Hammond made all sorts of grinding equipment in the days for mainly sharpening of braised on carbide tools.
    Go look at the Vintage Machinery website and see if there is any literature listed for your grinder or lapper.

    Ken

    EDIT: Well, it looks like there is not much on the Vintage Machinery website for the Hammond grinders. There is a couple of pictures of your grinder posted for comparison, but that's about it. Ken
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  22. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Ken.thanks for info..will try and get estimate of speed tomorrow .dont think it turns as fast as my bench grinder.has good torque .cant stop it with piece of wood..putting 3 phase power to motor instead of single phase won't speed motor up?thanks for your time.
     
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  23. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    the motor will not run any faster on full 3 phase.
    if the motor doesn't sound bad and it doesn't get hot, you may have a working motor.
     
  24. Chipper5783

    Chipper5783 Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You say only 3 leads? The picture of the connection plate shows 9 leads (which would be a normal dual voltage 3 phase motor). Did you look in the connection box ("peckerhead") right on the motor?

    If you really only have 3 leads, then I don't see why that connection plate would have been attached to the motor?

    Regardless, with the motor having no load on it - as others have pointed out above, the speed will be the same no matter if it connected for the higher or lower voltage. The correct connection simply means you will get rated power when the correct voltage & connection is set up.

    Glad you are getting it sorted.
     
  25. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Motor runs smooth and quite.didn't run but about 10 minutes.didn't get hot.maybe grinders from 30's-40's didn't turn as fast??if motor was a 440v it wouldn't run on 220 I'm guessing. Going to try and get an idea of rpm next.thanks for all the help.
     
  26. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Yes. Only three.local guy told me there was more wires stuffed inside motor.so took motor apart to find missing wires..only the three.the connection plate is on rear bottom of grinder housing.motor plate missing.no holes for rivets.it does have 6 wires hooked up in forward.off reverse switch like on my lathe.most are tagged L1..L2..T3. Etc. thanks
     
  27. Chipper5783

    Chipper5783 Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have a 10" Excello tool grinder that is about that vintage - 1 HP, 220/440 3 phase motor, 1750 rpm, belt drive to the spindle (which is running about 2100 rpm). When it comes to shaping / sharpening the brazed carbide tool bits - it is fantastic. I bought a diamond wheel (which cost a lot more than the grinder) - it is much better than a green wheel on the bench grinder.

    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/carboloy-excello-tool-grinder.37715/
     

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  28. Lordbeezer

    Lordbeezer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Very nice machine..once I get motor sorted out going to take mine apart and clean it up and add some paint.friend has quite a few new Norton dished diamond wheels and quite a few other types.he said if I get grinder working he would hook me up..thanks for reply.
     
  29. master53yoda

    master53yoda Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Speed of an AC motor is a relationship to frequency and the way it is wound. voltage doesn't come into play on AC induction motors. Ulma Doc has been giving good info so I;ve just been watching.

    Art B
     
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  30. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Looking at your pictures over and over, to me, I believe the motor has been rewired at some time in it life. Part of the dead give away is the red insulation paint covering the internals of the rotor and bell housings. There's also some green epoxy paint, at least its looks like it around the windings. These things were not used back in the 1930's-1940's. Stuff back then was covered with that black tar looking stuff. If not rewired, new leads pulled. I've seen this done in my past, where the owner only wanted the leads pulled for a specific voltage. And it sounds to me, the leads were pulled for the lower voltage. Now that you know the motor runs good, I would attach a VFD to the motor and run it that way. Ken
     

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