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Help w/Phase Converter for My HLV

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by gdavila, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. gdavila

    gdavila United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Greetings!
    My name is Gary and other than my introduction, this is my first post. I'll do my best to follow forum etiquette, so please feel free to correct me as needed! Here goes:

    I recently bought a nice Hardinge HLV from a friend that's downsizing his machine shop. It's 1 hp, 3 ph, 220v. It has 110v transformer that appears to power everything but the motor. I have been reading the forum to look for the best way to convert phase for my application. (A bit confusing) But, because of space limitations, I think I'd like use a VFD to accomplish the phase conversion for the motor only, and use the machine's variable speed control to control the speed.
    Any suggestions as to sizing, brand, model would help me from having to re-invent the wheel. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
    Also, would someone educate me as to what is a forum tag?
    Thanks!
     
  2. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    Welcome aboard Gary!

    In that HP range you have a lot of options. The GS2 and GS3 VFDs from Automation Direct are a good choice. If the HLV is mechanical speed control the GS2 VFD would work fine. Not the least cost, but good readable documentation and USA based support. There are a number of vendors on Ebay that sell less expensive VFDs but trying to translate the manual, if one is included, is sometimes difficult.

    https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ts_(115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC)/GS2-11P0

    https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...S3_Drive_Units_(230_-z-_460_VAC_SLV)/GS3-21P0

    On the other hand, you could ship the HLV to me, I would be happy to install a VFD, but it may require several years of testing in my shop just to make sure it's working properly.:grin:

    Tags: You can add keywords to help the search engine find the posting. Normally not needed.
     
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  3. f350ca

    f350ca Canada Active User Active Member

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    I've never used a VFD, from what I understand the load can't be switched. You'd loose the two speed motor function which in my opinion is very nice. A rotary phase converter might be a better option.

    Greg
     
  4. gdavila

    gdavila United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hi Jim!
    Thanks for the quick reply. My HLV is 1954 by the serial# and is indeed mechanical speed control, I believe it's called a Worthington Drive. It has the hand crank on the motor door panel. Is there any advantage to the GS3 over the GS2? and would it be preferable to use one with more than a 1 hp rating?

    I see you haver a Miller Syncrowave 250. Great machine, I miss the one I bought for our shop before I retired. I have a little Syncrowave 180 SD and so far it suits my needs.
     
  5. gdavila

    gdavila United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks Greg, I hadn't thought of that. I'll look into it.
     
  6. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    Greg just pointed out something, if your HLV has a 2 speed motor then things get a bit more complicated. You can not disconnect the motor from the drive, without completely shutting power down. In that case I would definitely go with a sensorless vector (GS3) VFD. You could run it at 60 Hz on the low speed windings, then kick it up to 90 or 120 Hz (depending on the number of poles) to run at the normal high speed. This is easily programmable and would just require a switch. Depending on the motor current, it might require a larger VFD.

    Nothing wrong with going with a rotary phase converter either.

    Yeah, I like my Syncrowave 250, it's been good to me for the last 30? years. It does need a tune up, never had any service, but not that much use either. There is a local guy at Airgas that is a genius at tuning these up, need to get it over to him one of these days.
     
  7. Maddogmech1

    Maddogmech1 United States Active User Active Member

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    Although it's a different animal, I recently completed a repower of my monarch 10ee, using one of the Chinese vf drives from eBay. I now have several machines powered by them, and so far (knock on wood) no issues. The monarch has a 5hp 3ph motor, speed control of the drive is a simple external speed pot, which I coupled to the original speed control knob so it has a 100% factory look. I absolutely love the ease of speed control this way, you could look into replacing the drum switch with a pot on your machine and run it the same way. For me, the cost savings of the huanyang drives are priority over the better customer service and manuals (although I don't find the manuals for these hard to decipher)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  8. f350ca

    f350ca Canada Active User Active Member

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    Yours must be a twin to mine, apparently serial number 400 was 54 vintage as well.
    I can't remember if all the taps for the two sets of windings are totally separate, I'm thinking one set might be tied together. In any case someone more electrical savvy can step in. You might be able to run two vfd's one for each winding and rewire the two speed switch to activate the units.

    Greg
     
  9. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    Hey Gary, welcome to the best site. We're helpful and friendly, now I'd build a RPC in fact I'm going to be as soon as I can get out, I'm in the process of pain relief with epidural shots , had two but may need up to five. Each one takes a months time it seems . So onward you will need a motor three phase larger then your total of the machines you have with three phase. Then a starting capacitor , a 220 volt contactor, encloser box to hold wiring and switches. A few 220 volt run capacitors . Ulma doctor on here has the plan and video on them. If you were close there's one on craigslist for $200. Set up for up to three horsepower. I think it would do for the lathe.
     
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  10. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    Hi Gary,
    i live over the altamont in Tracy- i could build or show you how to build a RPC for your shop
    i have the parts at home to make a bulletproof unit that will last you for many years to come :)
     
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  11. Keith Foor

    Keith Foor Active Member Active Member

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    Got to ask, does your HLV have a coolant pump as well? Some did. Running more than one motor off a VFD is also problematic.
    My personal take is getting or building a RPC (rotary phase converter) to run the machine.
    Yes, those had a Worthington drive, and they work well. So how ever you go about it, I would use the Worthington drive for speed control over trying to run a VFD for speed control. As far as the two speed motor if you lathe is so equip. If you are dead set on running a VFD you will need to turn off the VFD output before switching speeds from low to high or vise versa. Now if your lathe is wired like my DV-59 that will require you to hit the start button on the cabinet to re-energize the electrical system before the lathe will work again.
    Getting into a full rewire to eliminate all that would be difficult but not impossible if you are familiar with industrial control circuits.
    I know that the DV-59 I have actually has some fairly complex control circuits that run the motor drive for the Worthington Drive, the brake, and the coollant pump. Even though all of this is lever controlled on the Hardinge, the levers all mechanically control switches in the cabinet to actually route the power.
     
  12. gdavila

    gdavila United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Wow guys! You've given me lots to think about. It sounds like the RPC may be the best route to go even though I was trying to stay as compact as possible. I need to check to see if the motor is in fact 2 speed. I just got the lathe moved into my garage/shop yesterday. Greg, my serial number is 555-3. Silver Bullet, thanks for the Craig's List lead. Keith, the HLV does have a coolant pump but I'm pretty sure it runs off the 110v control circuit.

    Found this (link below) static phase converter on Ebay. I'm definitely a newby on the subject of phase conversation and I've read that using a static converter will reduce the motor output to some degree. Can this be addressed by proper/over sizing of the converter? These units seem very compact and inexpensive. To a degree, the compact size is more important than the low cost. And Mike, thanks for the generous offer to help me build an RPC. It may come to that lol!

    ttp://www.ebay.com/itm/HD-1-3-Hp-Static-Phase-Converter-Mill-Lathe-Saw-USA-MADE-single-to-three-SCX03/191297077856?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3Df203728c963045ab8d90043d418ef9d4%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D281623703425
     
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  13. British Steel

    British Steel United Kingdom Active User Active Member

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    Hi Gary,
    Static converters typically give 1/2 to 2/3 motor power and the phase relationship between outputs tends to wander a bit, so they work but a HLV deserves better! (It's a fine high-quality toolroom lathe and deserves respect)
    A rotary should give full power and opens up possibilities when you go machine shopping in future (you will, believe me) as it'll provide 3-phase for your whole shop.
    It doesn't need to be huge, size the motor in it about 50% larger than you think any purchase will need (e.g. if your biggest machine will be a 3HP mill, start from a 5HP 3-phase motor) and add some relays, caps and (if your the flashy type) meters and lamps.

    Dave H. ( the other one)
     
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  14. gheumann

    gheumann Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I've been running my HLV on a Phase-a-matic phase converter for years. Absolutely 100% trouble free, reliable and butt-simple.
     
  15. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    if you choose to use a static converter, you may wish to add a momentary switch to the 3rd leg of the converters' output.

    the phase-a-matic is a potential relay type of static converter- the 3rd leg is connected to a potential relay and start capacitor.
    Every time the voltage on the 3rd leg dips, the start capacitor is called into action by the potential relay and a huge DC charge is sent to the motor to bring the motor back up to speed.
    the constant fluctuations in voltage can ask the potential relay to operate many times a minute, under load.
    that's not the ideal situation for start capacitors- they like to be used relatively infrequently, they have very little heat dissipation capability.
    the more frequently start capacitors are used, the earlier they fail.
    when you add the momentary switch to the third leg, you effectively selectively remove the start cap from the circuit, increasing the life of the static converter

    i had the start cap failure on a Phase-A-Matic 20 years ago, it led me to design my own static converter seen here:
    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/rpc-simple-design-unbalanced.12712/
    i have 3 working units of different HP rating in my home shop, and 50 units in various garages and home shops around the country
     
  16. Jubil

    Jubil United States Iron Registered Member

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    I am also fairly new to HM forum, but I am enjoying reading all these posts. A wealth of info is available and everyone is friendly.
    I ordered a Phase-a-matic for a 2 HP motor on a 15 x 48 Cincinnati lathe. The first one "fried" when I turned it on. Called the Phase-a-matic folks and they promptly sent me another one ( heavier duty). The only problems after that was it would sometimes surge at the higher speeds and I couldn't conviently reverse the motor.
    Then I bought a Bridgeport mill that had a RPC with it. Used it for both machines for a while and had zero problems. Cincinnati lathe is no longer in my possession, (long story).
    No experience with VFD so my vote goes to RPC. Seems to be less problematic all things considered.
     
  17. bobshobby

    bobshobby Australia H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I haven't used or even seen a phase converter for many years but I did use sometime ago from memory the RPC was a 5hp motor with a small singe phase motor connected by a clutch, to get it spinning. it was hooked up to, I think 3 x 3 phase motors, 2 hp each, and was able to run any two if them at the same time. The RPC also had a flywheel I'd guess about 10kg. I was told it was to help it start the other motors. It all seemed to work pretty well.
     

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