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Hello from Hudson Valley, what steel to use...

PGregory

Iron
Registered Member
#1
Hi From the Mid Hudson Valley of NY State.
I have an entry level question about what steel to use for making tool holders for a tailstock turret.
I'm looking at this as a first project with steel.
The turret receiver is 3/4" straight.
There are many videos and other sources of info about the differences in available steel stock, but not at the level of saying "for your first projects stick to XYZ." Possible choices from what I've learned so far seem to be W1 and C1018.
Of course, the application is most important when choosing the steel - right material for the job.
I have to drill a bunch of aluminum standoffs in the lathe and want to set the turret up to simplify the process of drilling and tapping the standoff ends.

Cheers - Peter
 

rgray

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#2
I made mine from 1144 stressproof tgp (turned ground & polished). You can buy it that way and then not have to machine the outer diameter. It also machines nice. It's not hardenable though.
If you need hard there is o-1 and 4130 or 4140 that can also be purchased tgp. these also in my opinion machine better than w-1 or 1018.
 

Bob Korves

H-M Supporter - Premium Content
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#3
The above advice is good, and good steels for the job, the C1018 less so, but you asked for the best steel for your first project, and for that I would recommend 12L14, which is very easy to machine and won't work harden on you. It is not weldable, which is probably not an issue with this project. It is also not able to be hardened, like the other steels listed above, except the C1018. Wear will be a long term issue if the parts are not hardened. In a hobby shop, that is far less of a problem. Use an easy to machine steel and you will enjoy the process a lot more as a newbie.
 

PGregory

Iron
Registered Member
#4
Thank you Bob and RGray - I am getting some 1144 and 12l14 to try out and I will post pics of the project as I go along. Nothing spellbinding, Im sure, but perils and outcomes will be new to me.
 

markba633csi

Active Member
Active Member
#7
1144 stressproof and 12L14 leaded are both good. The stressproof is a little harder to machine but harder steel. Both about the same price I think.
Mark S.
 

Eddyde

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#8
While those steels mentioned above might be the best choices, I think W-1 or O-1 drill rod would be perfectly adequate for the application.
BTW, Welcome to the forum!
 

PGregory

Iron
Registered Member
#9
Well, I think this project may be a good non-critical one to try a few more of these materials. I have 2 x6 turret tailstocks, one of which I am going to refurb and put up for sale, again. And, more holders will be needed over time. Thanks for all the info and I am glad to be here in the forums.
Here are seller's pics of the first and second tailstock I just picked up. The second was photo'ed assembled backwards by the seller, but it was more complete than the first one I got. Both are mechanically good.



s-l1600 (8).jpg s-l500 (1).jpg
 

chips&more

Active User
Active Member
#10
Someone above said 1144 is not hardenable. That statement is not true/correct. It’s commonly called 1144 stressproof and is about Rc17 hardness. When heat treated the stressproof properties will be lost but you can achieve about Rc53 hardness. For reference, I have just heat treated ½” round 1144 and noticed a 0.002” increase in part diameter. So, be aware, this stuff can grow after heat treat.…Dave
 
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mikey

Active User
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#11
1144 stressproof and 12L14 leaded are both good. The stressproof is a little harder to machine but harder steel. Both about the same price I think.
Mark S.
As far as I know, 1144 is not a leaded steel; 12L14 is, though.

1215 is the non-leaded equivalent of 12L14 and turns pretty nicely.

I agree, both are good steels for this project. I don't think you need to heat treat these tool holders for hobby shop use and either will work well. 12L14 is far easier to work with but will rust fast so keep the holders oiled when not in use. 1144 stressproof is harder and will resist wear longer; it is good because it comes semi-hard, resists warping when machined or heated and gives a nice satin finish with a sharp tool.

For a first steel project, I vote for 12L14.
 

Bob Korves

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#13
Thank you Bob and RGray - I am getting some 1144 and 12l14 to try out and I will post pics of the project as I go along. Nothing spellbinding, Im sure, but perils and outcomes will be new to me.
1144 machines very nicely, as does 4130 and 4140. All is good until you let your cutting tools rub, which will cause the steel to work harden, and then the job will get a lot more difficult. With those steels and other higher carbon steels, keep the tool cutting freely the entire time it is in contact with the work. Shallow finish cuts can also be difficult with those steels, for the same reason.
 

PGregory

Iron
Registered Member
#15
I am starting out and I don't have a handy local source of surplus at good prices, or free. Yet(!) But, I now have some 1144 and 12l14 on the way to start with. I think this is a good project to learn some of the handling properties of the others, too...
 
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Silverbullet

Active Member
Active Member
#16
For the cost difference , after your first set make another with drill rod . It's harder but you can buy the od you need , I try to look at the time spent as money wasted or made. Just a thought.
 

chips&more

Active User
Active Member
#17
Streesproof info from Lasalle steel who developed it.:
http://www.niagaralasalle.com/product-stressproof.html

Can be induction hardened, but watch for quench cracks. The increase in diameter makes sense.
I just make it a rule not to try hardening it. As I've had others have no luck with it.
I just grab o-1 or 4130/4140 if I want hard things.
Yes, and the link says nothing about it cannot be hardened. Induction heating is just one process of heating the metal to critical temperature. Most of my heat treating is done with a Mapp gas torch. 1144 steel has 44% carbon in it. I have no problem in hardening it and have done so for many decades. Also, the internet has lots of the same info. Just remember, that if you do heat treat 1144, all of its stressproof properties will be lost. Good luck with the Hobby…Dave.


PS. Induction heaters are very reasonable now from China. And like, if I don’t have enough on my plate. This toolaholic is seriously thinking of adding an induction heater to my toy shop. Good for heat treating, brazing, loosening rusted nuts...;)
 
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rgray

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#18
PS. Induction heaters are very reasonable now from China
We're getting off topic but the induction hardening intrigues me. I find induction melting furnaces. Is this what you would use?
Or would one just use an induction heating element and pass the item though and then quench?
Found some on aliexpress and was gonna link a couple of pages but they are huge and take up a whole page themselves.

P.S. you missed a decimal 1144 carbon content .4 to .44% :encourage: I know you knew that, just put it out there for others who might be following :wink: https://midwestmetalwarehouse.com/carbon-steel/1144-stressproof.html
 

Cobra

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#22
From good old Wikipedia:

Induction hardening
is a form of heat treatment in which a metal part is heated by induction heating and then quenched. The quenched metal undergoes a martensitic transformation, increasing the hardness and brittleness of the part. Induction hardening is used to selectively harden areas of a part or assembly without affecting the properties of the part as a whole.[1]

The interesting bit to me is that you could spot harden if you needed.
 

Wreck™Wreck

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#23
You are making bushings for a tail stock turret to be used in a small lathe in a hobbyist setting making threaded stand offs, a discussion of material selection and hardening is way overkill. If made from plain old 1018 available at Home Depot you will not live long enough to wear them out even if you are 20 years old now.

Last week on a Warner & Swasey turret lathe of WW2 vintage, 1 5/8" drill through 3 1/8 long steel parts in one shot, no peck and no pilot hole in less then 6 minutes each. Not a single one of the turret adapters is hardened either straight or tapered (several dozen).
Draw you own conclusions.

Sorry about the knee shot, I do not spend my days editing How To videos nor have the equipment and software to do so.
 
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benmychree

John York
H-M Supporter-Premium
#24
Turret lathe doing what turret lathes do best! I had a #4 Warner Swasey in my shop when I sold it and retired, and used it for a variety of limited production work. I particularly like spade drills for doing that sort of drilling, they break up the chips, and are NEVER used with pilot holes, perhaps just a spotting drill to start them.
 

4gsr

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter-Premium
#26
For any steel or cast iron to respond to heat treat, it must have an carbon equivalency of at least 2. This number is derived from the carbon content in association with the Manganese content in the material. Any steel can be harden if this number was met. Of course, other chemicals added like copper, high contents of Nickel and so on, make it so , it will not respond to HT. When you do that, it reclassifies the steel into different categories of metals.

A place I worked at several years ago, we used to take 1020 castings and carbon restore into the surface of the steel. So when the parts were set up on the induction hardening machine, the surface was heated up and polymer quenched to give us a hardness of about 50-55 HRC. It would have been much cheaper to carburize the parts at the same time they were carbon restored. It was a political decision that came from upper management, our hands were tied!
 

benmychree

John York
H-M Supporter-Premium
#27
For any steel or cast iron to respond to heat treat, it must have an carbon equivalency of at least 2. This number is derived from the carbon content in association with the Manganese content in the material. Any steel can be harden if this number was met. Of course, other chemicals added like copper, high contents of Nickel and so on, make it so , it will not respond to HT. When you do that, it reclassifies the steel into different categories of metals.

A place I worked at several years ago, we used to take 1020 castings and carbon restore into the surface of the steel. So when the parts were set up on the induction hardening machine, the surface was heated up and polymer quenched to give us a hardness of about 50-55 HRC. It would have been much cheaper to carburize the parts at the same time they were carbon restored. It was a political decision that came from upper management, our hands were tied!
I am not familiar with the "carbon restoration" process, please explain.
 

PGregory

Iron
Registered Member
#28
Glad to have all the info, gents. As a note, I will be on vacation for the next week, away from the lathe, but then should have a clear week to work on the tool holders.

Best - Peter G.
 

Rick Berk

Active User
Active Member
#29
With out question, I would use 4140 PH, (pre-hard) this is about 30-35 Rc hard on the OD and softer on the inner area. The PH will give an excellent turned finish for .750 and the center can be drilled and reamed to the desired diameter.
 

4gsr

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter-Premium
#30
With out question, I would use 4140 PH, (pre-hard) this is about 30-35 Rc hard on the OD and softer on the inner area. The PH will give an excellent turned finish for .750 and the center can be drilled and reamed to the desired diameter.
I like to add a little to this. What people call 4140 pre-hard is really 4140 Q & T (Quenched & Tempered) to 28-36 HRC. And in rounds up to 3" in diameter, it's fairly consistent hardness to the center of the bar, not just the outer area of a bar. And really, the higher heat treated material in my opinion cuts much nicer. It's tough drilling, but with good cutting oils/fluids, it's no different than cutting 1018/1020 material dry.