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Getting Started 05/17 Version.

Discussion in 'ATLAS, CRAFTSMAN & AA' started by The Legend, May 15, 2017.

  1. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    I've been a lurker for a little while here , but I saw this and I had to post. I'm an Engineering Student and I've been slowly getting into metalworking and machining .. I work in two 3D printing labs where things are made easy but I've always had an interest in the original methods of creating things .. such as blacksmithing and general metal working. As my knowledge increased I realized what I was looking for was a milling machine and a lathe .. these are the base machines required to make essentially anything but coming up on two years and I have yet to find a good source for reasonably priced "old" machines that are capable of working metals , I also find myself hard pressed to find local people who are interested in the same things and willing to share their knowledge with some "kid". I've found this field very hard to get into as a poor college student.
     
  2. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Most here, and for that matter most who frequent most of the other fora, are quite willing to answer questions, or offer suggestions or advice when asked. But we can't answer what hasn't been asked.

    As far as finding hardware goes, eBay, Craig's List, local auctions, sometimes garage sales, and once in a while our own For Sale areas are the most likely. But with all of those, timing is usually the critical issue. I know of no places where any day of the year, you can walk in and find just what you are looking for at bargain prices. Most of the new equipment available today is going to be Chinese. The good stuff is expensive. The cheap stuff is cheap.

    Have you progressed far enough yet to have decided what type and size or capability of machine(s) you want to start with? That is usually critical. As is what you want to make. You can't just say that you "want to get into metal working".
     
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  3. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    I hear ya , I have been looking on craigslist daily for a while .. and it's mainly been my own inabilility to get somewhere due to schedule or what nots, but essentially I've come to the conclusion that to at very least begin I'm looking for a craftsman 101 / (atlas 618 ? )sized lathe or something only slightly bigger because my space requirements are quite limiting , and I am looking for an atlas horizontal mill in particular but an equally capable mill of similar size would be fine. As far as what I want to do it's hard to give any answer other than general metal working because I'm likely going to find myself dabbling in trying to fabricate anything and everything within the size parameters of the machine .. however I can say my main interests would be reverse engineered replacement parts for small stuff and the other ( which I know is fairly common ) is gunsmithing , just as hobby so the purpose built machines that are large and expensive are simply going to have to wait and I understand that.
     
  4. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    And I'll clarify one of the main reasons I mention the craftsman and atlas machines is because I love the way they look , I am very much into the older machines because I feel if I can learn to run something with less "cheats" I'll understand more when I move up to something that has more ... that and there was a craigslist ad with a shaper , lathe and atlas horizontal mill for 150 each and I missed it because of my aunts graduation .. unsurprisingly the stuff was sold before I could even leave the event haha one of those " damn that sucks " situations but I've become quite fond of the atlas mills since then specifically because I think I could find use for a horizontal mill to make splines and gears while I'm versatile enough to use one with a basic end mill and just milling the work sideways.
     
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  5. tq60

    tq60 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Start visiting estate sales but spend time "mining"...

    Dig in the junk and talk with the folks running the sales.

    Every area has a group of parties that do this and there are different "classes" of companies.

    The high end high price where everything is collectable to the other end that are "liquidators" .

    The high end serve the fancy and greedy families and the liquidators serve usually better off folks that just need to clear out a house and do not need the income.

    We got our SB 14.5 from the high end guy for a song as his usual customers did not want to travel to the sale so he called us after and begged.

    Building a friendship with these folks will get you digging privileged and better prices too.

    These folks have lists of customer wants and email lists so having these companies aware of your wants allows them to look too as stated above when you die the family has no clue and the estate company may not know but having a customer looking for something often allows them to sell it before the official sale to make room for the sale.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
     
  6. Round in circles

    Round in circles United Kingdom Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Look for a gun club near you on Google and ask the secretary if he can put you in touch with a hobbyist machinist who makes guns . I had a quick look using your avatar square info. There is one four miles from Newcastle , but it shows PA I'm not sure if that is Pennsylvania or Pasadena
     
  7. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    Yes , I am in New Castle, Pennsylvania. so I get this straight am I contacting any Gun Club ? or a particular one ? I am a Member of the New Castle Pistol Club ? I can be in contact with the guys who run that. if I am on the right track so far should I then ask them for the contact info of a Local Hobby Machinist or are you thinking of a certain person you know of ? quickly looking at your user card shows a UK flag so I am only assuming your in the UK in which case I am not realistically thinking you actually know a person but are just sending me in the most logical direction for some local contacts.

    whew !! hope I got some of that right haha

    also I have come across this craigslist ad guys so I would ask what any of you thinks of this ?
    https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/tls/6132940503.html

    Lastly I am NOT trying to Hijack this thread I just wanted to tell you guys that there are at least a few of us Youngin's who dont have a penny to our names but want to learn , and not just on the CNC bogus that's widely available and just rests in a different realm of Mfg, but the old machines that were made in the Prime of Home Machine Shops and Rosie the Riveters !! so if I am annoying anyone on this thread just point me where I should be on the forums. :)
     
  8. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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  9. Dave Paine

    Dave Paine United States Active Member Active Member

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    I live about 1 hr drive from you in NW Lehigh County. I have been a woodworker for a long time. Purchased a SB Heavy 10 a few years ago, then found I wanted longer lathe so found a used Grizzly lathe with longer bed which is now being used. Heavy 10 not being used much.

    I recently purchased a used Grizzly small knee mill.

    I am happy if you want to make the drive to take a look at my machines and share some knowledge. Seeing some machines in operation will help you decide what size and features you want in a machine. You may even be able to make something.
     
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  10. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thank you that's a very kind offer and I will likely take you up on that !! Can you compare the sizes of the heavy 10 to the atlas 618s I know they're basically both " small machines " but that the atlas is considerably smaller but I mainly concern myself with the weight of the machine as I basically have to bring it down the basement stairs myself , but the SB lathes are gorgeous in my opinion and I've heard nothing but great reviews of them in all sizes also your knowledge would be much appriciated at the very least
     
  11. Dave Paine

    Dave Paine United States Active Member Active Member

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    Happy if you take me up on the offer.

    The Atlas lathe seems to have about the same bed length as my SB Heavy 10.

    Differences
    a) Swing. Atlas is 6in, mine is 10in. This is over the bed, will be much less over the carriage, so this can limit work diameter.
    b) Spindle through hole. Often overlooked, but if the spindle through hole is smaller than the work diameter, it can prevent holding some work in the chuck. Depends on the length of the work. A big benefit of my Heavy 10 is the large through hole 1 13/32in.
    c) The Atlas uses change gears to control the speed of the lead screw. Used to change power feed rate and also for cutting threads. Changing the gears is not difficult, just takes time. Not clear if the Atlas has all the potential change gears. The Heavy 10 has Quick Change Gear Box, often stated as "QCGB". A couple of levers to select feed rate or for threading. I have a couple of change gears if I want to do certain metric threads.
    d) I am not sure what the taper size is in headstock or tailstock. SBs have odd taper in the headstock. Taper in the tailstock is MT2. The Atlas may be MT1. There are a lot more MT2 accessories than MT1.

    The Atlas pictures do not show any motor. I can donate a spare 1Hp motor. I swapped the single phase 1 HP motor on the Heavy 10 for 1 HP three phase and VFD.

    The lathes can be dissassembled for transport. Just need to cut the flat belt. I replaced the old worn flat belt, and then removed the headstock for cleaning.

    Southbend_Heavy_10_overall_3375.jpg
     
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  12. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    Well , if your trying to sell me on the SB consider me sold haha but I'll ask the guy if there's a motor and what change gears he has .. I think the head stock is MT2 and the tail is MT1 if I remember correctly from my research for this model of lathe

    The other thing is that smaller lathes land in my price range more often .. this one is realistically $250 out of my price range but I'm going to talk to him and consider it .. if you or anyone knows of anything or has any lines on something in the 2-300 range I would be interested and I hate to list that number because I feel like people spend thousands on machines without thinking twice but being in college that's just not an option. That south Bend you have though is awesome looking and as long as I could haul it I would find space for that haha


    I reposted the above because apperently when I replied to you it was through email and it didn't link it to the site haha
     
  13. Dave Paine

    Dave Paine United States Active Member Active Member

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    The Atlas ad does say a set of thread cutting gears. Take note of the gear ratios so you can look up later to find what threads can be cut.

    It never hurts to ask if he will take a lower price, but I think he would have to be really keen to get rid of the machine to let it go for $300.

    Tooling ads up fast. You can get by with a few tools, but it may take time to change tools, or limit what you can machine.

    The lathe has the original lantern style tool post same as in the SB picture. This means adjusting a tool to be on centre height every time you change tools. Also not a good design for parting.

    If you can visit on Saturday you can see the difference between lantern style and Aloris style Quick Change Tool Post. It did not take me long to realise I needed to get a QCTP. I have not regretted the purchase. It does help to see other machines before taking the plunge.
     
  14. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    So the other thing I would like to know .. is there an identify my machine thread ? Because I do have a very very old drill press that I have no clue of the make
     
  15. Dave Paine

    Dave Paine United States Active Member Active Member

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    Not a single thread. There is a forum for Drill Presses. Post some pictures and perhaps someone can help.

    http://hobby-machinist.com/forums/drill-presses-shop-presses.286/

    You can also try VintageMachinery.org, but this is based on looking at a particular manufacturer, so if you do not know the manufacturer, it is not easy to navigate.
     
  16. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    Alright thanks !!
     
  17. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The Heavy 10 is a much heavier machine than the various Atlas 6" models (or the Atlas 10" models for that matter). They didn't call it "Heavy" for no reason. A 1HP motor is much to large for the 618. You will very soon break something. The factory recommended 1/3 HP. The largest that I would ever put on one of them would be 1/2 HP. The spindle on the 618 has a 17/32" through-hole and a 1"-10 spindle nose thread.

    One other critical assembly that I did not see in any of the photos unless I just missed it is the countershaft assembly. Without it, the machine can't be used and isn't worth near the asking price. They are not easily found by themselves and are usually in the $150-$200 range when you do.

    Also, were the machine complete and running, it is not necessary to cut the V-belt in order to move it. You would remove the countershaft hanger from the countershaft bracket and slip the belt free. It would stay with the headstock as shown in several of the photos.
     
  18. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks for the info

    He says the counter shaft assembly is there in the description
    If I'm right that's what this pic shows

    I'm going down there now so and I have 400 total I'm going to start him at 300 and see how it goes ?
     

    Attached Files:

  19. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK. That is the countershaft assembly. One thing to check is the pulley on the rear end of the shaft. It looks cleaner than the rest of the assembly. It should be a 2-step, M6-427. There should also be a 2-step motor pulley, M6-428. That one at least we have the factory drawing of.

    Also, although I have seen photos of lathes assembled this way, the factory drawings all show the 2-step countershaft pulley on the near end of the shaft as would be seen in the photo. When properly installed, the countershaft assembly would be turned around so that it leans away from the lathe. Assembled the way that the parts manual and a photo in the early parts manuals show, the motor would be off to the left of the headstock. Assembled as seen in the photo the motor would be behind the bed.
     
  20. westsailpat

    westsailpat United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hey TL , here is something to look at for comparesom note the smaller bed on the Craftsman 6 " . I wish this guy would separate this stuff and get more reasonable about price . Here is my plan get the small bed 6" and make it my dedicated milling attachment machine . And of course he would sell it to me for $50. Haha in my dreams .
    https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/6132598826.html
     
  21. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    Alright so here's the deal , went down talked to the guy for like 45 mins was going over the machine .. his dad bought it some 60 odd years ago and he has no use for it .. he uses a smaller sherline for his projects , its oiled well the ways seem very smooth and it's got a little pile of bits and bobs to go with it ... I told him 300 and he said he wanted to wait to see if someone would offer more ... he says if someone doesn't offer more than 400 it's mine , also in the way of motors he said I could have a couple motors he has lying around one with a belt pulley on it already .. it comes with a tool arbor two separate Jacobs chucks one for head stock and one for tail stock .. some boring bars ( no holder) he mocked up the counter shaft and showed me how it would work it seems like what you said earlier @wa5cab it appeared that a motor would mount basically behind the center of the lathe bed or maybe a little closer to the head stock but either way ... it also has the old atlas "how to lathe" book .... so idk what do you guys think ? I'm prepared to wait but I also don't want to be stupid and let something once in a blue moon get away...

    Also @westsailpat that's rediculous .. I can't stand when people mention eBay in ads ... that's like when people list out how much they spent on brakes and rotors and tires on a car they're selling ... that guys really needs to split that stuff up
     
  22. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    TL,

    If you can get it for $300 or $350, I think that it would be a good deal. If the motor he was referring to has a single-step pulley on it, go ahead and take it (if you get the lathe) but the correct motor pulley is a 2-Step M6-428. Like the 2-step M6-427 on the outside of the countershaft.
     
  23. Dave Paine

    Dave Paine United States Active Member Active Member

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    The spinde has 3 step pulley plus backgear so 6 speeds. If you mount the two step pulley on the motor you will get at least 3 more speeds which can be useful. The manual may state the max speed in back gear.

    I use back gear for parting and threading.

    Check the diameter and keyway on the two step pulley to see if it matches the motor you take home.

    Many motors can be wired to run clockwise or anticlockwise. If the motor can only run in one direction, ensure it is the desired direction for the mounting support.

    It is not unusual to see a 60 year old lathe still running. I wonder how many machines which contain electronics will be running 10 years from now, never mind 60.
     
  24. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    It was a single step but , I'm going to be going into the workshop soonish to check out my drill press to post pics and I have a couple pulleys I'll send some pics of those and see what you guys think ,

    Yeah that's why I like these old machines ... they weren't designed with an expiration date like today's stuff is , it all comes down to business model ...
     
  25. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    I would like to get this lathe .. it just cracked me up a little because we finally started to get to talking about money and he's like ... ya know I really want this to go to someone who is going to use it and not someone who is going to let it sit and collect dust ... I'm in my head like .... "he's standing right here in front of you and your turning him down !!!" Haha oh well... just goes back to that original thread I started on about succession of machines with aging machinists
     
  26. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Actually, of all of the metal lathes that Atlas built, only the 918 Utility Lathe has a 3-step spindle pulley. All 6", 10" and 12" machines had 4-step spindle pulleys and with back gears a total of 16 speeds.

    All single phase Capacitor Start AC motors can be wired to run in either direction. Some may require partial disassembly of the motor in order to reverse them.
     
  27. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    @wa5cab and @Dave Paine with that said , even though the lathe wasn't designed to run with a motor with more steps , if I had a pulley set up with say 3 steps .. would that be too much for a little 618 ? Or would that simply make it more versatile ?

    Also so everyone knows ... seeing this machine in person , this IS the size I want for right now no smaller but not a whole lot bigger just due to space requirements but like I said .. this is it as far as size of lathe for now so I'm excited !!
     
  28. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    TL.

    If you have or can locate the 2-step motor and countershaft pulleys, that, with the back gears, gives you 16 speeds. That should suffice. If you later find a good reason to have more, you can go to a VFD and 3-phase motor (they do make those in 1/2 HP).
     
  29. The Legend

    The Legend United States Active Member Active Member

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    IMG_3259.JPG IMG_3268.JPG Here's some pics of the pulleys I have available to me with or without the atlas lathe
     
  30. Dave Paine

    Dave Paine United States Active Member Active Member

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    The 3 step pulley gives you more potential speed options. The shaft on the motor with the single pulley looks short.

    Do they both run quiet? Any vibration of play in one vs the other?

    The one with the 3 step pulley has a cradle style mount. Not sure exact name, but may have less vibration due to this mount.

    Any nameplate data including the Frame ID?
     

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