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G4003G tooling

Discussion in 'GRIZZLY INDUSTRIAL INC.' started by ryno85, Aug 5, 2017.

  1. ryno85

    ryno85 United States Iron Registered Member

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    I've just upgraded from a Harbor Freight 8x14 to a G4003G. I never had any decent carbide tooling, but I've been looking to buy some for the new lathe. I did have some 1/2" HSS before which I've put in the tool holder and set to the center line, and it looks like there would be enough room to use 5/8" tools, but just barely. I wanted to see what everyone else is using.

    On a related note, I can't drop the tool holder all the way down without unscrewing the knurled knob so far that the locking nut almost comes off. This doesn't seem normal, like maybe the stud is too short. Does anyone else have that issue?
     
  2. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The 5/8" tools could also be ground with the cutting edges below the outside 5/8" dimensions, and it is also possible to mill the bottoms of the tool holders shorter. The studs are usually threaded in quite deeply. You might be able to pull the stud out, clean out the threaded hole and the stud to get rid of any oil, and then Loctite the stud in with it not screwed all the way in. That would give you more height for the knurled nut.
     
  3. ryno85

    ryno85 United States Iron Registered Member

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    I think I'll probably just stick with the 1/2" tooling. I'm trying to not modify anything on this lathe. That's part of the reason I bought it; I spent more time modifying the old one trying to get it to work well than I did actually using it.
     
  4. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    1/2" tools are more than adequate for your lathe. The BXA "XL" holders can hold 3/4" tools, and the bottom of the slots are lower than the other holders. Those holders would hold your 5/8" tools, if you have any. If not, it is probably not worth buying any, the 1/2" tools are plenty rigid enough. The real advantage is to be able to fit other tooling bought used at good prices. FWIW, I am using some 3/4" insertable tooling with BXA XL holders on my 13x40, and I find them much more rigid, and the extra mass seems to help stop vibration and chatter. They are also often cheaper to buy used than smaller ones.
     
  5. ryno85

    ryno85 United States Iron Registered Member

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    I finally got my 220v outlet finished today and had a chance to run the break-in and make some cuts using the 1/2" HSS tooling I had. Like you said it definitely seemed rigid enough so I'm going to just stick with 1/2". What style of inserts are you using? I've been looking at CCMT. I'd really prefer CNMG or WNMG since you get more cutting edges on each insert, but from what I understand these "smaller" lathes don't have the power for those inserts.
     
  6. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    CNMG and WNMG are usually used in negative rake tool holders so you need power and rigidity to use them to full effect. The CCMT/CCGT inserts are positive rake inserts intended to cut with lower cutting forces so they work better on smaller lathes. Most of the CCMT grades will work with steels at about 200 sfm so your lathe can hit the speeds they require until your work piece diameter dips below 1/2" or so. With the CCGT's, you need speed and you won't hit it unless your work piece is about 1-1/2" or so but I've found that even at lower rpm's, the serious positive rake of the CCGT's cut pretty nicely.

    AR Warner also sells CCMT inserts in HSS if that interests you. I haven't tried them yet, though.
     
  7. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A few thing to consider, although CNMG and WNMG have more edges, does it really make a difference in the long run at the hobbyist level? A CCMT insert can last me 3-6 months and I pick them up for around 2-6 dollars each. As Mikey outlined, the negative rake tool holders in general do not perform as well in small lathes with less Hp. There is also a wide range of inserts with different coatings and edge profiles, so although the holder may be negative or neutral rake the insert edge can be highly positive. In addition, usually the larger the insert holder, the wider availability of inserts, they are much more plentiful and less expensive on different auction sites. Do not buy generic no-name inserts like Cobra, etc., they are cheap and they do not last. I buy name brand inserts such as Kennametal, Iscar, Korloy, etc. and they work much better. But you need to know a bit about the insert types, coatings and profiles. The cutting speeds are more for production level machines, I routinely run my inserts at 1/4-1/2 the rated SFM with great finishes and no cutting issues. Part of this is also the rigidity of your lathe/holder. CCMT insert holder is considered a neutral holder (second letter defines the holder rake), WNMG insert holder is negative.

    My everyday insert for cutting steel is a CCMT, and I use both CCMT and CCGT inserts. For softer materials I use a WNMG holder with highly polished uncoated carbide inserts with a sharp positive edge. They cut great, I usually change the cutting edge every 2-3 months so an insert lasts a long time. If one breaks, takes no time to replace it and I do not need to reset my tool holder position or DRO position setting. I have a wide range of other insert holders for different profiles, all my other insert holders are neutral "C" type holders which seem to work well on the lower power lathes. I use different inserts depending on the material, the depth of cut and the type of cut (heavy, light, interrupted), but usually for my CCMT I usually use a single insert type (from Kennametal) that has a wide cutting performance in most materials. I have attached some notes I put together.

    The G4003G should be able to take a BXA holder, so 5/8" tool holders would be more optimal if it fits. If you had a 13 or 14" swing you could use 3/4" holders which can give a bit more rigidity providing your lathe is also more rigid.

    On the QCTP holders you should have enough adjustment for the full adjustment height on the tool post, it might be the brand you have. Otherwise make your own threaded adjustment posts that are taller.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  8. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I am assuming your tool post is BXA because you are having trouble getting the 5/8" tools low enough. The 4003 lathes are sort of on the borderline between AXA and BXA fitting from what I have read, no personal experience. All my insertable tooling is triangular, TPG, etc. I would like to get some CCMT tooling, but do not seem to need it very badly so am waiting for a great deal before buying.
     
  9. ryno85

    ryno85 United States Iron Registered Member

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    Thanks for the responses everyone, especially mksj for the document. All these different insert types are pretty overwhelming. I guess once you find the one that works for you it's just a matter of finding the best price.

    I think I'm going to go with a 5/8" CCMT tool. My toolpost is the BXA that came with the lathe. I was going to be making some more tool holders on my mill, so I can just mill the slot a bit lower if needed.

    Any recommendations for a threading toolholder? I see there are two types; one holds the bit flat and the other vertical. Is one better than the other?
    http://www.shars.com/1-2-rh-mtvo-tri-lock-tool-holder-1
    http://www.shars.com/products/index...ool-universal-external-threading-toolholder-1
     
  10. darkzero

    darkzero Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A G4003G with BXA should be able to use 5/8" shank tools just fine without any modifications needed. My PM1236 can even use 3/4" shanks with oversized holders.

    What brand BXA tool post & holders are you using? Can you post a photo of your issue?
     
  11. ryno85

    ryno85 United States Iron Registered Member

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    I got my 5/8 tool holders in the mail today and it turns out they do fit fine. I just thought it was odd that there was still about 1/8" on the QCTP dovetail below the toolholder but the lock nut was barely on the threads. I went ahead and uploaded some pictures I took a few days ago; maybe they will help someone out in the future.
    20170808_012741.jpg 20170808_012911.jpg 20170808_012929.jpg
     
  12. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The problem with using a tool post with the holder all the way down to the compound, or nearly so, is that chips collecting there can keep the tool holder from reaching the proper height at installation unless the chips are carefully removed before installing the tool holder. Not a real problem, just a bit fussy and something to be aware of.
     
  13. ddickey

    ddickey United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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  14. Groundhog

    Groundhog United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    First, I don't have any knowledge of these tools, but ....... :eagerness:.
    I've read that some of the import insert lathe tools suffer from poor inserts. They say to change out the import inserts for quality inserts (Sandvik, Kennametal, Iscar, etc.) and get an amazing quality improvement. So, if the fit, finish and overall quality of the tools seems pretty fair you might test one with a higher rated insert.
    Please let us know what happens.
     
  15. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Some of the import insert tool holders are also poorly machined and use substandard materials. Some are just fine. The pockets for the inserts need to have a good fit and support or they will chatter, flex, and break. The screw holes also have to be well centered and nicely tapped to hold the insert firmly and correctly in place. Quickly made tools using poor materials along with a lack of quality control and quality assurance means that poor quality tools can and do go out the door. A good quality used insert tool holder in decent condition can be a good deal and often have lower prices than new imports. On eBay, unable to be closely inspected for damage and wear, I refuse to roll the dice, and just wait for something local I can put my hands and eyes on...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017 at 2:19 PM
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  16. ddickey

    ddickey United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Are Sumitomo considered quality inserts?
     
  17. Groundhog

    Groundhog United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Bob Korves - You are lucky (in that respect) to live in a place where used tooling is available locally. Many (most?) of us would be waiting years to find a good used tool locally. So, we must do whatever we can online or buy new.
     
  18. darkzero

    darkzero Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    For indexable inserts, stay away from the carbide C grades, those are generic inserts, don't matter what "brand names" they call them. You get what you pay for.

    I personally usually stay away from import tool holders (indexable) also unless it's something I will rarely & lightly use.

    Yes
     
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  19. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    There are a number of reasons to go with better quality indexable insert holders, I believe I mentioned previously they usually have a replaceable insert seat, a anchor pin/replaceable threaded sleeve, screws, etc. The hardware is much better. This means if something breaks, you usually do not loose the whole holder, Also these parts are interchangeable so the same CCMT size tool holder will often have the same parts be it left, right or center cut. That way, I can rob parts from one I rarely use for another if needed, as opposed to having a lot of oddball holders.. Speaking to a few other people that have the cheap import holders, and the switched to more name brand holders (and inserts), they have noticed a difference. You also may select holders in higher quality holders for the ones you use a lot, and less expensive for those used less frequently. So in my case my daily users are the CCMT Kennametal and Seco WNMG, less frequent I may use something like a TMX or what I consider a mid quality holder. A good holder, especially with replaceable parts, may be the last holder you buy.

    There are good inserts, and there are alo a lot of bad ones. There also can be fakes. I have tried a few odd name/no name ones, at least for me they just do not last and break quickly. On something like the CCMT in a 32.5X size which firs 5/8" holders, I have found that the Kennametal CCMT09T304-SM IC907 (32.51) is a great all around insert it works in many materials and holds up well. I have purchased from both of these vendors, they appear to be the same.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ISCAR-CCMT3...-SM-IC907-Carbird-Inserts-10pcs-/192270850902
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-inserts-CCMT-09T304-SM-IC907-ISCAR-CCMT-3-1-SM-IC907-/292035875576

    If youre budget is really limited, this vendor seems to sell a number of decent quality holders/inserts at very reasonable prices. At hese prices, I would not buy used online, they are often pretty mangled, but I will buy something new if the price is right.
    http://www.latheinserts.com/5-8-SHANK-LATHE-TOOLING_c164.htm

    On inserts, there are so many types coatings, breakers, etc. it pays to read up and find what works for you and stick with it. I did a lot of research, and have a fair understanding, but you can quickly get lost in the zillion types of inserts out there. I look at the profile, coating, and indicated materials it is indicated along with the type of cut.
     

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