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Flood Coolant Set Up Questions

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TomS

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#1
In the never ending task of trying to get the most out of my CNC mill I decided to set up Mach3 to control my flood coolant pump. I've configured Mach3 and my PMDX-126 BoB so that the KM1 relay is operated by Pin 1. This all seems to work fine. When I press the "Flood" button or enter a M8 command in Mach3 Pin 1 becomes active and sends a 5VDC signal to my SSR. I confirmed that I'm getting 3.95VDC at the SSR and the red indicator light does come on. The problem I'm having is the pump is not starting. I must have a mental block because I'm not understanding what's going on with the AC side of the circuit. Whether the SSR is activated, or not, I'm reading 120VAC across the SSR AC terminals. When I check continuity across these terminals I get nothing when the SSR is activated.

Here is a schematic of my wiring. Like I said I'm just not seeing what I'm doing wrong.
 

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Boswell

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#2
First, I think that a motor will look like an inductor in the circuit and so if the SSR is OPEN and so no current is flowing you would expect to see 120VAC across the terminals. If it was closed and conductin then you would see 0VAC across the terminals and you would see 120VAC across the motor as all the voltage is dropped across the load. So, I think (not an expert here) your SSR is not closing. Could be the Triac (or whatever it has inside) is fried or you are not getting a good trigger for some reason. You might try a resistive load instead of the motor like a lamp to see if you get a different result. You can try to short across the terminals of the SSR to verify that the pump is working properly (remove power, install short, re-apply power).
 

JimDawson

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#3
First, I think that a motor will look like an inductor in the circuit and so if the SSR is OPEN and so no current is flowing you would expect to see 120VAC across the terminals. If it was closed and conductin then you would see 0VAC across the terminals and you would see 120VAC across the motor as all the voltage is dropped across the load. So, I think (not an expert here) your SSR is not closing. Could be the Triac (or whatever it has inside) is fried or you are not getting a good trigger for some reason. You might try a resistive load instead of the motor like a lamp to see if you get a different result. You can try to short across the terminals of the SSR to verify that the pump is working properly (remove power, install short, re-apply power).
I agree
 

spumco

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#4
On the PMDX-126, the K1 relay is rated at 30A at 120/240VAC. K2 is rated at 10A. Good schematic on page 26 of the manual when using K1.

You might try just using K1 as the only relay and leaving the SSR out. You already have 120 or 240 powering the PMDX, so I'm guessing it's not a big wiring job to just use it directly and 30A should be fine for a pump motor (I hope!).

PS - don't forget to fuse it upstream of the relay.
 

TomS

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#5
First, I think that a motor will look like an inductor in the circuit and so if the SSR is OPEN and so no current is flowing you would expect to see 120VAC across the terminals. If it was closed and conductin then you would see 0VAC across the terminals and you would see 120VAC across the motor as all the voltage is dropped across the load. So, I think (not an expert here) your SSR is not closing. Could be the Triac (or whatever it has inside) is fried or you are not getting a good trigger for some reason. You might try a resistive load instead of the motor like a lamp to see if you get a different result. You can try to short across the terminals of the SSR to verify that the pump is working properly (remove power, install short, re-apply power).
It's a new SSR. I guess that's guarantee it's good. I'll do the lamp test and see what happens. Then I'll do the short across the terminals test.

Thanks
 

TomS

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#6
On the PMDX-126, the K1 relay is rated at 30A at 120/240VAC. K2 is rated at 10A. Good schematic on page 26 of the manual when using K1.

You might try just using K1 as the only relay and leaving the SSR out. You already have 120 or 240 powering the PMDX, so I'm guessing it's not a big wiring job to just use it directly and 30A should be fine for a pump motor (I hope!).

PS - don't forget to fuse it upstream of the relay.
I didn't realize K1 was rated at 30A until you mentioned it above. Must have read the manual a dozen times today and didn't see the relay amperage ratings but looking at a picture of the BoB on the PMDX website it's clearly labeled 30A. Like I said I had a mental block.

I'll look at the pump but I'm sure it doesn't pull anywhere near 30 amps. It's on a 20A circuit and hasn't tripped the breaker yet. The wiring change is easy. Just route the AC wiring to K1 instead of to the SSR. Actually this makes for a cleaner installation.

I have a few things to try. Thanks guys.
 

jbolt

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#7
Mine is wired like yours except I use the relay on the pmdx-126 to switch a 12vdc power supply for the SSR. The cheap SSR's don't seem to work well below 5-6 volts.
 

Bob La Londe

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#8
I used analog very low current draw 5V relays. Why do you have so much less than 5V? All of my machines have solif 49.-5.1VDC on the logic circuits of the BOB. Its pretty solid with a mediocre to decent 1A 5V regulated PS. I've even left my old RS meter hooked to a laptop logging voltage levels while doing testing. I do have a PMDX BOB, but its still in the box it came in. Anyway, then for heavier loads I use the 5V low current relay to activate a heavier relay or a contacter for motors, solenoids valves, etc.
 

TomS

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#9
I used analog very low current draw 5V relays. Why do you have so much less than 5V? All of my machines have solif 49.-5.1VDC on the logic circuits of the BOB. Its pretty solid with a mediocre to decent 1A 5V regulated PS. I've even left my old RS meter hooked to a laptop logging voltage levels while doing testing. I do have a PMDX BOB, but its still in the box it came in. Anyway, then for heavier loads I use the 5V low current relay to activate a heavier relay or a contacter for motors, solenoids valves, etc.
I haven't investigated why I'm getting 3.95vdc. I'm out of town for a couple of days. Could be my power supply but don't know for sure.

As I recall I had a similar problem when I first converted my machine. IIRC I upped the power supply to 12 or 15vdc and that solved the problem. I'll check it out when I get home on Thursday.
 

TomS

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#10
Mine is wired like yours except I use the relay on the pmdx-126 to switch a 12vdc power supply for the SSR. The cheap SSR's don't seem to work well below 5-6 volts.
I think you hit on something. I had a similar problem when I first started my conversion. Installed a 12 or 15vdc power supply and that cured it. Thanks for the reminder.
 

TomS

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#11
It didn't go well today. Fired up the system and no lights for K1 or K2 or pin 1 and pin 14. Checked my configuration, thinking I didn't save my previous settings, and all is good, i.e. Output 1 and 2 enabled and set to Port 1, Pin 1/14. Ran out of time today. Will work on it some more in the morning.
 

TomS

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#12
I think you hit on something. I had a similar problem when I first started my conversion. Installed a 12 or 15vdc power supply and that cured it. Thanks for the reminder.
I bench tested the relay using a 18vdc (my SSR is rated 3 to 32vdc) and I have continuity across the AC terminals. Evidently the relay doesn't like low control voltage.

The problem now is the BoB relays aren't energizing. They were working a few days ago but when I fired it up yesterday afternoon I had no relays. Everything else on the board works, e.g. I have axis motion and the spindle responds to M3 and M4 commands. When I toggle the Flood button it blinks "blue", which is normal, but the K1 relay, and pin 1, do not energize. Using M8 still nothing.
 

spumco

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#13
Check jumpers JP1 and JP2 on the BOB. These will have an affect on the config dip switches 7 & 8. If you're using a 107 spindle card, you may have the BOB set to Multimode, which means relay K1 is controlled by the 107 card and not Port 1, Pin 1.

Similar situation with K2 relay. JP2 and Config 8 control what, if anything, triggers K2. See page 11 of the manual.

-S
 

TomS

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#14
Check jumpers JP1 and JP2 on the BOB. These will have an affect on the config dip switches 7 & 8. If you're using a 107 spindle card, you may have the BOB set to Multimode, which means relay K1 is controlled by the 107 card and not Port 1, Pin 1.

Similar situation with K2 relay. JP2 and Config 8 control what, if anything, triggers K2. See page 11 of the manual.

-S
I've got the jumpers set for pin 1 on JP1 and pin 14 on JP2. If I understand the manual correctly in this mode dip switches 7 and 8 have no effect on K1 or K2. Ouput 1 is enabled and set to Port #1 and pin #1, Output 2 is enabled and set to Port #1 and pin #14 and I've unchecked "Disable Flood/Mist Relays" on the Spindle Setup tab. The relays were energized a couple of days ago but for some unknown reason they're not working now. I'm missing something. Just don't know what it is.
 

spumco

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#15
You've got it set up correctly as far as I can tell. Next move is to contact PMDX on their forum - they're extraordinarily helpful over there. They should be able to help you determine if it's a setup issue or dead relays.
 

TomS

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#16
You've got it set up correctly as far as I can tell. Next move is to contact PMDX on their forum - they're extraordinarily helpful over there. They should be able to help you determine if it's a setup issue or dead relays.
I posted on the PMDX forum yesterday morning under the user name LerninCNC. No response yet.

Spent most of the day reading most of the PMDX forum posts and the net looking for info that might help. Tried a few things that I thought might work but still no change. Guess I'll have to be patient until they respond.
 

spumco

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#17
While you're waiting for a response - the BOB isn't in 'test' mode is it? Manual states that that de-energizes everything. Same thing for an E-stop.

Also, when you trigger pin1 or pin14, can you see the on-board LED's light up on the BOB? And also see in Mach (or whatever controller you're using) diagnostics page if the pins are driving high or low? If the screen LED's are off, then come on when you click whatever button you've assigned the M8 function to, then the controller is probably working and sending a signal to the BOB. Once the screen LED indicates the pin is high, then check the BOB. The Port-1 Pin-1 & Pin-14 LEDs are right next to J6 connector. If you're getting a screen LED, and also a BOB LED, but no relay joy - then dead relays.

Another option is to try to change the K2 trigger and see if that changes anything. Set JP2 to 'multimode' and dip switch 8 to 'closed.' Then assign M8 function to Port-2, Pin-14 and try to trigger the K2 relay. The BOB LED is labeled "B" next to connector J5.

After that, I'm stumped.
 

TomS

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#18
While you're waiting for a response - the BOB isn't in 'test' mode is it? Manual states that that de-energizes everything. Same thing for an E-stop.

Also, when you trigger pin1 or pin14, can you see the on-board LED's light up on the BOB? And also see in Mach (or whatever controller you're using) diagnostics page if the pins are driving high or low? If the screen LED's are off, then come on when you click whatever button you've assigned the M8 function to, then the controller is probably working and sending a signal to the BOB. Once the screen LED indicates the pin is high, then check the BOB. The Port-1 Pin-1 & Pin-14 LEDs are right next to J6 connector. If you're getting a screen LED, and also a BOB LED, but no relay joy - then dead relays.

Another option is to try to change the K2 trigger and see if that changes anything. Set JP2 to 'multimode' and dip switch 8 to 'closed.' Then assign M8 function to Port-2, Pin-14 and try to trigger the K2 relay. The BOB LED is labeled "B" next to connector J5.

After that, I'm stumped.
I've never pushed the test button and the status light is not on so I don't believe I'm in test mode. No matter what I've tried the BoB LED's do not light up nor is there indication on the Diagnostics screen.

Good idea on setting JP2 to "multimode". Will try that this morning. If it works with JP2 I'll set JP1 to "multimode" and key in the appropriate settings as I'd rather use K1 to start/stop the pump motor.
 

MontanaAardvark

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#19
I haven't investigated why I'm getting 3.95vdc. I'm out of town for a couple of days. Could be my power supply but don't know for sure.

As I recall I had a similar problem when I first converted my machine. IIRC I upped the power supply to 12 or 15vdc and that solved the problem. I'll check it out when I get home on Thursday.
Have you re-checked this? If your 5V supply has gotten lower output, more things are going to stop working.

If I'm reading this right, you went from the SSR not triggering the AC relay to almost (?) nothing working.
 

spumco

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#20
If you've never gotten the BOB LED's working, then there's a config problem in Mach, a dead PP cable or physical pin, or the BOB is truly smoked.

If it were just the relays, the BOB LED's would light up. And since the BOB has an onboard 120/240VAC transformer on it, there's no issue with a power supply to the BOB. If you're using an ESS are you powering it through the BOB?
 

TomS

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#21
Have you re-checked this? If your 5V supply has gotten lower output, more things are going to stop working.

If I'm reading this right, you went from the SSR not triggering the AC relay to almost (?) nothing working.
Just to clarify I was using Port1/Pin1 to power the DC voltage side of the SSR. What I found out was 3.95vdc was not enough to energize the SSR. I tested the SSR with a separate 18vdc power supply and the SSR worked. Haven't done anything with this because I've changed my approach and am going down the path of using K1 or K2 directly power up my coolant pump.
 

TomS

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#22
If you've never gotten the BOB LED's working, then there's a config problem in Mach, a dead PP cable or physical pin, or the BOB is truly smoked.

If it were just the relays, the BOB LED's would light up. And since the BOB has an onboard 120/240VAC transformer on it, there's no issue with a power supply to the BOB. If you're using an ESS are you powering it through the BOB?
My ESS has a separate regulated power supply. I've got lights on all over the BoB just can't get K1 or K2 Led's to turn on, until I followed your suggestion. I changed JP2 to "multimode" and configured Mach accordingly. When I toggle the Flood button or enter an M8 command K2 energizes, the LED lights, and the Output #2 light on Mach's Diagnostic screen comes on. This tells me the configuration is correct. However, I get no voltage across either the NO and COM terminals or the NC and COM terminals when the relay is energized. With my multimeter I'm getting continuity across NO and COM terminals and NC and COM terminals whether the relay is energized or not. This doesn't make sense to me because if the contacts were stuck closed I should see voltage. How can I check to see if there is AC voltage at the relay?
 

Boswell

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#23
Tom, Here is my suggestion on troubleshooting this: Looking at the diagram for the PMDX-126 board section 7.2 it looks like all the PMDX-126 board is providing is relay contacts, so you will not get any voltage from any terminals unless you supply the power (as in the diagram). This does not explain your test that shows continuity across NO and COM and also NC and COM regardless of the relay state. I assume you are testing the continuity with Nothing connected to the terminals. If not be sure to disconnect any wires connected to J10 then test Continuity. With ALL power removed from the board you should be able to see Continuity between NC and COM but NOT between NO and COM.
I would recomend
1. Remove any wires at all from J10​
2. Remove all power from the PMDX-126​
3. Test continuity​
3.1 Expected result: Continuity between NC and COM​
3.2 Expected result: NO Continuity between NO and COM​
3.3 if you do NOT get the expected results then either you continuity tester is not working or the relay/PMDX-126 has failed is some way​
4. If successful the apply power to the PMDX-126 and use MACH three to Toggle the Relay while testing Continuity​
4.1 Expected result: Alternating between Continuity and NO Continuity as you toggle the relay with MACH3​
4.2 Expected result: Alternating between Continuity and NO Continuity as you toggle the relay with MACH3​
4.3 If you do NOT get the expected results but you did in test 3, then MACH 3 is not correctly controlling the relay regardless of what the LED is telling you. If the LED is toggling but test 4 fails then likely a PMDX-126 board problem.​
5. If successful then wire up the pump per the diagram in section 7.2 Be sure to take advantage of the MOV as this will extend relay life considerably.​
 

TomS

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#24
Tom, Here is my suggestion on troubleshooting this: Looking at the diagram for the PMDX-126 board section 7.2 it looks like all the PMDX-126 board is providing is relay contacts, so you will not get any voltage from any terminals unless you supply the power (as in the diagram). This does not explain your test that shows continuity across NO and COM and also NC and COM regardless of the relay state. I assume you are testing the continuity with Nothing connected to the terminals. If not be sure to disconnect any wires connected to J10 then test Continuity. With ALL power removed from the board you should be able to see Continuity between NC and COM but NOT between NO and COM.
I would recomend
1. Remove any wires at all from J10​
2. Remove all power from the PMDX-126​
3. Test continuity​
3.1 Expected result: Continuity between NC and COM​
3.2 Expected result: NO Continuity between NO and COM​
3.3 if you do NOT get the expected results then either you continuity tester is not working or the relay/PMDX-126 has failed is some way​
4. If successful the apply power to the PMDX-126 and use MACH three to Toggle the Relay while testing Continuity​
4.1 Expected result: Alternating between Continuity and NO Continuity as you toggle the relay with MACH3​
4.2 Expected result: Alternating between Continuity and NO Continuity as you toggle the relay with MACH3​
4.3 If you do NOT get the expected results but you did in test 3, then MACH 3 is not correctly controlling the relay regardless of what the LED is telling you. If the LED is toggling but test 4 fails then likely a PMDX-126 board problem.​
5. If successful then wire up the pump per the diagram in section 7.2 Be sure to take advantage of the MOV as this will extend relay life considerably.​
Thanks Boswell. In the last week I've read a lot about this BoB and in particular the K1 and K2 relays. I found nothing definitive, at least in my mind, that says the AC power that is switched by these two relays is internal or external to the board. So I've erred on the safe side and went with the AC power is internal. Evidently I've made an incorrect assumption.

If the AC power is external then "line/black" goes to either the NO or NC terminal then from the COM terminal to the pump "line" connection. "Neutral/white" goes to the motor neutral connection. Just want to make sure so I don't fry my board.

BTW - I'll do the tests you suggested before moving on to the final wiring.
 

Boswell

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#25
You got it.

I would use the Normally Open (NO) contact.

The relay is alike a switch. It goes in-line with the Black wire. So pretend you are wiring up the pump with a plug into a wall outlet. Then take the Black Wire and cut it, putting one side into the COM (Common) and the other side into the NO (Normally OPEN) Then when you energize the relay the NO (Normally Open) contact closes and it is just like you re-connected the black wire where you "cut it"
 
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spumco

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#26
Tom,

I didn't get it until you mentioned "internal or external to the board"

Sorry, I assumed you knew that the relays were simply for switching external loads and didn't provide 110/220 to anything. The on-board transformer is just there because (I suspect) PMDX didn't want their board under/over powered by a cheap power supply.

If you use K1, it has an internal MOV so there's only two terminals. If you choose to use K2 - and that one should also handle your pump just fine - then use the MOV by connecting black/hot to both MOV and NO terminals using a little jumper wire. As described in the manual, the MOV helps reduce relay contact arcing.

-S
 

TomS

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#27
You got it.

I would use the Normally Open (NO) contact.

The relay is alike a switch. It goes in-line with the Black wire. So pretend you are wiring up the pump with a plug into a wall outlet. Then take the Black Wire and cut it, putting one side into the COM (Common) and the other side into the NO (Normally OPEN) Then when you energize the relay the NO (Normally Open) contact closes and it is just like you re-connected the black wire where you "cut it"
As you can tell I'm not electrically inclined. Thanks for simplifying it for me.
 

TomS

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#28
Tom,

I didn't get it until you mentioned "internal or external to the board"

Sorry, I assumed you knew that the relays were simply for switching external loads and didn't provide 110/220 to anything. The on-board transformer is just there because (I suspect) PMDX didn't want their board under/over powered by a cheap power supply.

If you use K1, it has an internal MOV so there's only two terminals. If you choose to use K2 - and that one should also handle your pump just fine - then use the MOV by connecting black/hot to both MOV and NO terminals using a little jumper wire. As described in the manual, the MOV helps reduce relay contact arcing.

-S
No worries. I has assumed that because the board is being fed with either 115vac or 230vac the relays were tied into the board power source. I'll let everyone know how it turns out.
 

TomS

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#29
Tom,

I didn't get it until you mentioned "internal or external to the board"

Sorry, I assumed you knew that the relays were simply for switching external loads and didn't provide 110/220 to anything. The on-board transformer is just there because (I suspect) PMDX didn't want their board under/over powered by a cheap power supply.

If you use K1, it has an internal MOV so there's only two terminals. If you choose to use K2 - and that one should also handle your pump just fine - then use the MOV by connecting black/hot to both MOV and NO terminals using a little jumper wire. As described in the manual, the MOV helps reduce relay contact arcing.

-S
No worries. I has assumed that because the board is being fed with either 115vac or 230vac the relays were tied into the board power source. I'll let everyone know how it turns out.
 

TomS

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#30
Success!!! I ran the troubleshooting tests Boswell suggested and they were all good, e.g. continuity and no continuity when expected. Wired K2 relay and pump motor and the pump started and stopped when I toggled the "Flood" button. Also tested it using M8 and M9 on the MDI screen.

Thanks guys for your coaching and patience. Next step is to configure my post processor to include an M8 and M9 command when I generate a gcode file.
 
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