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First lathe, tool bits

Discussion in 'A BEGINNER'S FORUM (Learn How To Machine Here!)' started by Jmanb13, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Jmanb13

    Jmanb13 United States Active Member Active Member

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    I finally got my 1946 15" Leblond lathe cleaned up and running. I have added a CXA QCTP with holders.

    I'm planning to buy a set of HSS bits to grind to shape. How many and what size would you recommend as a starting amount for the different profiles.

    I was thinking of 3/8 by 3/8 Grade M2 bits.

    What would be a good starting set of bit profiles to have on hand?
     
  2. wawoodman

    wawoodman himself, himself H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Right and left-hand cutting, R & L facing, single point threading.
     
  3. ghostdncr

    ghostdncr United States Active Member Active Member

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    I'd also add a parting/cutoff tool of some sort.
     
  4. Wreck™Wreck

    Wreck™Wreck United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Think about what work you are planning on doing, OD turn ,ID turn, face, chamfer and part are the most common, that is 3 or 4 tools. Internal thread, External thread, Internal grooving, External grooving and Face grooving both square and with a substantial radius, you are now at 9 tools. OD and ID back cutting adds a few more as does profile work. Buy or make the tools when needed not before you need them as they may never be used.

    A single tool that holds many different insert profiles is useful, Kennametal Top Notch tools use square groove, full radius groove and many different thread profiles such as 60 Deg., 55Deg., Acme, metric trapizoidal and buttress in the same holder, very slick. Kaiser Thinbit has an excellent line of internal, external and face grooving tools including those pesky dovetail O-Ring groove tools, I can not even begin to communicate how much I dislike dovetail grooves.
     
  5. intjonmiller

    intjonmiller United States Active Member Active Member

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    This is the basic, standard set. It would be reasonable to grind these ahead of time if you feel so inclined, but other shapes beside these would make more sense when you need them. Starting with a dozen or more blanks would be a good idea, as you typically save money by buying larger quantities.

    Types-of-Lathe-Tool-Bits.png

    If you look on eBay you can typically find old HSS tooling lots for sale. Sometimes blanks, sometimes ground, sometimes mixed. Vintage Rex AAA, MoMax, and Firth Sterling tend to be better quality than the majority that you'll find today. May be others as well, those are just the ones I've dealt with.

    Also note that T15, M36, and M42 (the latter two having roughly 5% and 10% cobalt added) are "better" (in roughest terms) grades than M2, but M2 is certainly good enough for most work. There are other grades as well, but they're less commonly available as tool blanks.


    http://tomstechniques.com/ has a lot of good info about tool geometry, grinding, and use. His YouTube channel is good, but he generally advises people to start on his website because the information is better organized there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
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  6. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A 15" lathe can certainly use 3/8" blanks for bits, but can also usually handle larger ones, typically up to 5/8 or 3/4". They are more rigid, and more expensive. HSS tools can be had for very cheap prices used. I have several times bought fairly large amounts at about a dollar a pound, already ground into tools, just touch up or regrind as desired...
     
  7. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The line between reasonable and expensive seems to lie at about 1/2" tooling - go bigger and the cost goes up really fast. The same is true for grinding times - above 1/2" takes much longer. Unless you are going for really heavy cuts most of the time, I would just go for 1/2" HSS and/or cobalt bits.

    The best cobalt bits, in my opinion, are Cleveland Mo-max bits (5% cobalt) or Super Mo-max (8% cobalt) but standard their HSS is fine for most work. I personally avoid Chinese bits when I can. Other names to watch for are Crucible, Rex (made by Crucible), Chicago Latrobe and Morse. ETM makes very high quality HSS tooling as well.

    As for shapes, most hobby guys use a general purpose tool that can face and turn in RH and LH. A good facing tool is a knife tool, also in RH and LH. A zero-rake general purpose tool and a round nose tool for brass is handy, as is a good 60 degree HSS threading tool for external threads. I suggest you research and buy a blade-type parting tool instead of grinding one. Boring and internal threading tools are another discussion with many options.
     
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  8. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Watch out for grinding lathe bits. Even the regular HSS tools contain cobalt. The "cobalt" tools have even more, and so do most inserts. Wear a dust mask and don't blow the dust around the shop. It is not high risk stuff, but still, why take a chance on making yourself ill.
    ----------------------
    Wikipedia:
    Precautions
    Main article: Cobalt poisoning
    Cobalt is an essential element for life in minute amounts. The LD50 value for soluble cobalt salts has been estimated to be between 150 and 500 mg/kg.[91] In the US, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has designated a permissible exposure limit (PEL) in the workplace as a time-weighted average (TWA) of 0.1 mg/m3. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has set a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 0.05 mg/m3, time-weighted average. The IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health) value is 20 mg/m3.[92]

    However, chronic cobalt ingestion has caused serious health problems at doses far less than the lethal dose. In 1966, the addition of cobalt compounds to stabilize beer foam in Canada led to a peculiar form of toxin-induced cardiomyopathy, which came to be known as beer drinker's cardiomyopathy.[93][94]

    After nickel and chromium, cobalt is a major cause of contact dermatitis.[95]

    Cobalt can be effectively absorbed by charred pigs' bones; however, this process is inhibited by copper and zinc, which have greater affinities to bone char.[96]
    ---------------------
    I have some old school Stellite 5/8" tool bit blanks that are around 60% cobalt, and some others with somewhat less than that, but still way more cobalt than tools have today. I am not excited about trying them out. Their scrap value is probably quite high.
     
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  9. gheumann

    gheumann Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I will go out on a limb here. I tried this with my first lathe. It was a mistake. I really didn't know enough, even after reading up on it a bit. Grinding your own tool bits is a skill and an art. Are you sure you want to try to learn that before you know how to machine with a lathe in the 1st place? If something doesn't go right, how will you know if it is the tool or one of countless other variables you might not be familiar with? Me? I really wanted to learn to make things FIRST. It really helps to have actually experienced using various tools to understand why this angle is that, and that angle is this, and so on. You say this is your first lathe. If I were you, I'd buy a tool holder set with indexable inserts. They work great and even to this day I do 95% of my work with them. They last long, they're a time saver, they're not expensive - and they just WORK so you can get to the business of learning how to make things. About the only cutting tool I take to the grinder on a regular basis are my parting blades.
    A set like http://www.grizzly.com/products/7-pc-Deluxe-Tool-Holder-Set/G8787.

    If you really want to grind your own, this looks like a nice compromise. Seeing a properly ground tool will really help! https://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4516&category=

    I
    know the old timers all say "learn to grind your own tools". THEIR teachers HAD TO. I don't think it is a bad idea if it interests you in and of itself. It just isn't necessary to learn RIGHT AWAY to start really enjoying your new lathe. Old timers used to tell me I should learn to use a slide rule - but I grew up in the calculator age. The analogy applies. They were tied to the way THEY were taught but they were wrong. I've never, ever needed a slide rule.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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  10. Jmanb13

    Jmanb13 United States Active Member Active Member

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    I'll keep an eye out on ebay for used bits.

    My lathe came with a box of misc lathe bits that I could use. They are all pretty rusty, but with some grinding that should go away. I probably have about 10 or so 3/8 and 1/2, with a few 3/4 bits. However, looking at all the profiles, I couldn't find a single one that remotely resembled any of the standard profiles. If I were to use them it seems it would require a TON of grinding or somehow cutting off the existing profiles and starting over.

    I tried using my bandsaw with a bi-metal blade to cut off the strange tips and start over, but it did not seem to be doing much and was probably ruining the blade.

    Unless someone knows an easier/better way of getting rid of the existing profiles, I figured I would just grab half a dozen name brand bits from MSC and grind both ends to give me a dozen or so different profiles.
     
  11. intjonmiller

    intjonmiller United States Active Member Active Member

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    Don't get rid of them until you are certain you understand them! They may be very useful forms. Post pictures so we can help identify if you like.

    Best case scenario your bimetal bandsaw blade's teeth are only very slightly harder than what you're cutting. That's not going to happen. Abrasive, plasma, torch, waterjet, or wire EDM are the usual methods for cutting tool steel like this, as this is the steel that is used to cut other steel.
     
  12. Glenn Brooks

    Glenn Brooks H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'd like to encourage you to learn to grind your own tooling. Sure, carbide inserts are swell and easy to use. However they have two significant draw backs. They break and shatter in no time with interrupted cuts. Also they require high lathe speeds (RPM) to operate properly. Most old lathes are not made with the kind of high RPM's that carbide inserts are designed to work with. OK, Three drawbacks - they are also expensive to buy. As a rule of thumb HSS works at RPMs ranging from 36 to 250. Generally, carbide inserts work at speeds from 400 RPM to 2000rpm, depending on the diameter of your work. Another way to think about it is: HSS speeds should be slow enuf to produce yellowish - straw colored chips. Carbide bits should work at higher speeds that produce hot blue chips. So a lot depends on what your lathe can turn for RPM's. A 1947 15" Leblond is definitely a HSS machine -super slow and powerful.

    OK! So also, It's just not that difficult to learn to grind HSS tool bits. Plenty of examples on YOu tube. Plus your local live steam (miniature railroad) club will have someone , or many someone's, who would likely be happy to help you learn how. After a few tries, you will be touching them up all the time. Sometimes just a few seconds on the grinder to apply a keen edge, makes all the difference in the world for producing fine finishes.

    Second the advice from Bob and others to use 1/2" bits. Cheap on eBay, particularity the used ones, and more rigid than 1/4" or 3/8".

    Good luck and have fun!

    Glenn
     
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  13. gheumann

    gheumann Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Glenn I respectfully disagree. That may be what the book says. I turn wood, aluminum, brass, delrin and steel almost exclusively with carbide inserts. I DO increase my speed over the recommended IPS for HSS, but unless you're turning really tiny diameters material you won't have any trouble getting these tools to perform, even on a lathe that maxes out at 1200RPM. I get great surface finishes. I've never broken a tool bit. I don't do a lot of interrupted-cut work, particularly on steel, but I do do it occasionally.
    I am not against learning to grind your own tools. I'm against doing it before you've learned how to use your lathe. I am proof you don't have to.
     
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  14. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hey, who you calling an old timer? ;)

    It's good to have a choice. Many guys cannot grind a good HSS tool and there is a difference between choosing and not being able to choose. One day you'll be turning a piece that has a lot of work already in it and you'll have to take 0.0005" off the diameter. That's about the time you learn about nose radii, deflection, cutting forces and the benefits of predictability.

    In my opinion, the best idea is to learn to grind good tools and also try some carbide. Then compare them on your lathe, doing the kind of work YOU do, and make your own choices.
     
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  15. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I agree with you, Greg, to a point. If I understand your position, you're saying that you don't have to learn to grind tools just so you can use your lathe and its true, you don't. But what if the OP chooses to do so? Is that not okay, too? Many of us have a lot of experience with both carbide and HSS and many of us choose HSS because it works better for us, not because someone told us to do it or because its the party line.
     
  16. AGCB97

    AGCB97 United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I got a 1/2 gallon pail of tool bits of all shapes and sizes, some new with my lathe. I might be able to put together an assortment for you very cheap if your interested. 75% are cemented carbide, balance HSS.
    Aaron
    PM me
     
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  17. AGCB97

    AGCB97 United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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  18. gheumann

    gheumann Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Can't argue with that!
     
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  19. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    If I had to choose between a socket set or a combination wrench set, I would definitely choose "both." Yes, they both turn fasteners...
     
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  20. willthedancer

    willthedancer United States Active Member Active Member

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    Go with hi speed. Half inch bits are fine, but you'll use the 3/8 too. Less grinding with smaller bits. Make your inevitable mistakes with tools that you can fix.

    Indexable carbide is great stuff, and I use it to save time or machine things that hss won't cut, but the inserts are expensive and unforgiving. The tool holders are also easily damaged, insert seats are hard to come by, and expensive too.

    Grinding advice...

    A slower grinder is better. Use a quart container of cold water to dip tool bits in. If the tool is getting temper colors, you're spoiling it. Keep it cool. Keep your grinding wheels dressed flat and free of metal embeds.

    The tool isn't finished when you're done grinding. The little burr that's left will break off and blunt the edge. This leads to metal buildup on top of the tool and early failure. Take a fine stone and rub the faces carefully. It will more than double the life of the edge.

    In common steels, your chips should not have temper colors darker than straw yellow. (You won't see temper colors in stainless unless you are cutting with ceramic tools).

    Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk
     
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  21. JPMacG

    JPMacG Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    My thought is that smaller HSS bits are less time consuming to grind and less expensive to purchase. Maybe you could start with 3/8 and move up to 1/2 later, when you have more experience with grinding. You might even start with 5/16 or 1/4 if your tool post will accommodate those sizes.

    I think that grinding my own has become fun and satisfying, although I admit that I started with some pre-ground bits that came with my lathe.
     
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  22. Jmanb13

    Jmanb13 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks for all the suggestions!

    I would like to learn to grind my own bits. I enjoy the learning process as much as actually making stuff, its kind of in my DNA. Also, I'm pretty sure old my lathe tops out at 500rpm in the top gear with the motor at 60hz. Even if I run the motor faster than rated i'm still barely breaking into carbide speeds. I think this really limits me to HSS.

    I dug out all the bits in the box of stuff I got with the lathe. Here is what I currently have to work with that came with the lathe. Most of the bits look like they were either ground for a specific profile or were broken in use. The labels I can read on them suggest that some of them branded REX.

    The majority of the bits are 3/4" or 1/2". The tool holder I have can hold up to 3/4 bits.

    Most of the 1/2" bits are generally between 1.5" and 2" long as is. The 3/4" bits are similar lengths as you can see. I'm not sure what the usable length of the bits needs to be, but to be held by 2 set screws on the tool holder they need to be at least 1" long plus whatever stick out amount is needed. I would think that leaves me very little wiggle room on regrinding the profiles.

    I have close up pictures of each size of bit if it helps.

    allbitslabeled.png
     
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  23. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I love looking at old tool bits. Some of them have some really esoteric shapes and I wonder what the guy was thinking when he ground it. I have seen some bits that were ground by a skilled machinist, complete with cleanly formed shapes and angles, but such is not the case here, Jmanb. Don't mean to seem snobby or anything but I honestly don't see anything in the pic that I would choose to reproduce.

    If it were me, I would start from scratch. I would buy some cheap Chinese 1/2" HSS tool bits from ebay and while I'm waiting for them to arrive, I would go to the hardware store and buy some 1/2" square keystock. I would cut the keystock into bit-sized pieces and learn to grind tool bits on that; it grinds easily and is cheap. It will also take light cuts, although the edge won't hold up for too long.

    There is a lot of info on tool grinding on the net and this site - search, ask questions and someone will help guide you. On a big 15" lathe, you are less worried about cutting forces, power or rigidity than some of us with smaller lathes so the angles in the typical lathe tool angle table will work fine for you. As for shapes, intjonmiller illustrated the shapes that were typically used on older machines with older style tool posts and they work fine. Nowadays, with the QCTP, we can also use a more generalized shape that works for most cuts we make. Again, search because I don't want to bog down your thread with too much detail here.

    I would also agree with you that if your lathe can only run at very low speeds then HSS or possibly brazed carbide might be your best bet. Regardless of which you use, I agree with Willthedancer and would hone the cutting edges with a stone, either synthetic or diamond.
     
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  24. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Carbide insert tooling will certainly cut at lower speeds. but it will not be at it's best, especially regarding surface finish.
     
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  25. Reeltor

    Reeltor United States Active User Active Member

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    Everybody has an opinion, it reminds me of the Ford/Chevy/mopar discussions.

    If you want to go carbide, I would stay away from this type of brazed on carbide:
    [​IMG]

    I am no expert by any stretch of the word! But I find that I can do very well with HSS hand ground bits and then tried some of the cheap brazed carbide ones similar to the photo from HF. I wasn't happy at all with how they cut and the finish they produced. You can dress them with diamond sharpening stones to make them a little better. Then I found some NOS carbide insert tooling and tried it. The difference between the insert carbide and the brazed carbide is like night and day. Several name brand HSS tooling was already mentioned, try to find some of those rather than eBay ones of mystery HSS.
    Just my .02

    Jnamb13, shoot me your name and address in a pm, I think I have a new old stock HSS MoMax in 3/8" i can drop in an envelop to you, if you'd like to try grinding your own.

    Mike
     
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  26. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Brazed carbide tools are just fine if you get good quality ones, and grind them properly as they need it. You can make them sharper than how most inserts come, which cuts nicely, leaves a good finish, but also needs grinding more often. Depending on the grade and quality, they can be very good for interrupted cuts as well. I have had some luck with grinding cheap Asian brazed carbide tools to a form that actually might cut something and getting good work out of them. Others have been poor in just about every respect.
     
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  27. Reeltor

    Reeltor United States Active User Active Member

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    Bob,

    can you explain what a "good quality" brazed carbide tool is? Brand? Price seems a crap shoot. I know not to expect too much from HF, what about buying on eBay? What is there to look for?
     
  28. mikey

    mikey Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'll let Bob give you the real answer but I like and use Micro 100 brazed carbide tools on occasion. In my opinion, they are the best of their kind.
     
  29. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I went out in the shop and dug into the top layer of the brazed carbide. Lots of Kennametal, Carboloy, Morse, Firthite, and Lake. Also some Armstrong, Super Tool, and Modco, and some unbranded. To make it simple, all the brand names ended in USA, and the majority of these tools might be older than half the people on this forum, from back when these tools were what was used in production and job shops, before inserts took ahold. Nearly all are new, unused, in beautiful condition after some Evapo-Rust, some elbow grease and some ATF. I have at least a hundred of them, 1/4" to 3/4", 20 pounds or more, in various configurations, and not more than $10-15 cost in the whole stack, Craigslist tool lot purchases. They work really well. Don't pay retail! Try not to buy junk!
     
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  30. Jmanb13

    Jmanb13 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Since I want to get started quickly I ended up picking up a lot of vintage bits off ebay. Its a combination of Mo-Max, Firth, and Empire bits. Not the "best" price. But at around $1.30 per bit it sure beats the $15+ per bit that MSC wants for new 1/2 USA bits.

    I'll be keeping a lookout for really good deals in the future, but I wanted to get started ASAP, and this auction seemed to be a decent enough deal for what was there.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Vntg-HS-...gKfUL0TRpk7CkVVYQ%2B8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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