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Craftsman/Atlas 6", what have I gotten my self into?

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wa5cab

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#61
Yes, Six thou up and down is excessive. I thought that you had written earlier that after replacing the bushings, you could tighten the clamping screw down enough to make the spindle difficult to rotate.
 

kopeck

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#62
I did. That's the weird thing, I can tighten them up to the point where there is considerable drag, almost to the point of the spindle not turning at all and there is still a little play.

You would think that the clamping force being vertical would remove the play there first. The horizontal play is more or less in my option acceptable, I just can't get the vertical play to go away. It seems to be all in that front bushing too, I can crank down on the rear one and it has pretty much no effect on the play.

The holes in the head stock looked perfect, brand new bushings, a a little wear in the spindle but wouldn't you think the play would be more uniform?

K
 

kopeck

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#63
Just thinking out side the box here. I wonder if a little shim stock between the housing and the bushing on the top might help?

I'm at the point where I really don't want to throw good money after bad. It needs a lead screw too so I have to keep that in mind.

K
 

francist

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#64
To my mind I'm thinking your shim stock idea may be a useful thing to try if you can get the bushing out of the cap easily enough. Not necessarily for a permanent solution, but it might give you an idea of what's going on. Or contrarily, what's not going on.

You might also want to verify that there is enough clearance between the front pair of bushings so that they will indeed draw up snug against the spindle. I don't have a plain-bearing machine, but I'm imagining a situation where the spindle may be worn enough on that front end so that the two bushing halves could close tight together but still fit loosely around the shaft. Just make sure you don't screw up the new bushings in that process though -- that would really tick you off.

If you haven't done it already, I would also take the chuck off that machine for any further measuring. If the error is in the spindle you should still see it without the chuck being mounted.

-frank
 

kopeck

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#65
The bushings are one piece, just simple bronze Oilite style bushing. There is no cap, the hole for the busing is machined into the head stock and then there's a slot cut in onside that is snugged up to take up the clearance. More or less you are crushing the bushing. Here's a decent picture:

atlas-618-craftsman-10107301-lathe-mint-condition.jpg

I think what might be happening is since the force is pulling on only one side there's kind of a hinge like effect going on. Pretty much even though the screw is pulling down it's also pulling in which tightens up the play side to side but could also making he bushing go out of round and and create more space on top.

I could be way off here. I think I need to pull the spindle and inspect further. I kind of think I know why it was for sale now...

K
 

Z2V

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#66
I know you have unwanted play in your spindle but I was just wondering if you had your work supported on the end with tail stock or rest. On mine I had to support anything sticking out of the chuck more that an inch or two if I was going to get any kind of decent finish. With the work supported it did a pretty good job with the tool dead center. I had the small insert set from Anytime Tools, also used HSS that I ground using Mikey' method. Without support there was little hope in a good finish. I know this won't help your spindle issue but it might help otherwise.
Jeff
 

francist

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#67
Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood the operation of the bushings. Thought they were a two-piece affair with removable cap. I'll assume then that the slit in the bushing is lots wide enough to accommodate some wear in the shaft and still close up snugly. And if that's the case, I remain puzzled as to why they won't close down enough to eliminate the vertical play yet you are able to eliminate side to side play.

-frank
 

markba633csi

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#68
You might want to take a look at Deans website he has about the most thorough run-thru of the bushing replacement on these machines,
scroll to the bottom of the page to the Atlas 618 section.
Your spindle might be more worn than you realized. Or perhaps one of the bushings you got was not correct.
Anyhow, check it out. Don't give up too soon- you're just getting started
www.deansphotographica.com
Mark S.
 

kopeck

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#69
I know you have unwanted play in your spindle but I was just wondering if you had your work supported on the end with tail stock or rest. On mine I had to support anything sticking out of the chuck more that an inch or two if I was going to get any kind of decent finish. With the work supported it did a pretty good job with the tool dead center. I had the small insert set from Anytime Tools, also used HSS that I ground using Mikey' method. Without support there was little hope in a good finish. I know this won't help your spindle issue but it might help otherwise.
Jeff
No, you are 100% right, it's something I need to try. I just got a new dead center, it's on my list of things to try. The piece I was working on was sticking less then 2" out tough.

I just need to get some material and some time!

K
 

kopeck

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#70
Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood the operation of the bushings. Thought they were a two-piece affair with removable cap. I'll assume then that the slit in the bushing is lots wide enough to accommodate some wear in the shaft and still close up snugly. And if that's the case, I remain puzzled as to why they won't close down enough to eliminate the vertical play yet you are able to eliminate side to side play.

-frank
Yeah, I don't quite get it either. Like I said it could be a sort of uneven pressure due to hinge like effect.

Pretty sure the worn spindle is the root of the problem though.

K
 

kopeck

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#71
You might want to take a look at Deans website he has about the most thorough run-thru of the bushing replacement on these machines,
scroll to the bottom of the page to the Atlas 618 section.
Your spindle might be more worn than you realized. Or perhaps one of the bushings you got was not correct.
Anyhow, check it out. Don't give up too soon- you're just getting started
www.deansphotographica.com
Mark S.
I used Dean's page to get the thing apart/replace the bushing.

I'm not giving up, just bummed I got a bit of a lemon to start with. It's an old machine and it looks like it was used a fair amount, not just a toy that was used once or twice a year. I think the tough spot I'm in is to make things right I'll have more money then the lathe is worth, I just don't want to dig to big a hole.

K
 

markba633csi

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#72
Well if it's any consolation mine came from cross country all busted up, basically it fell out of the box and hit the pavement at least once.
Lots of repairs needed, including another headstock and leadscrew.
I was thinking maybe slotting the bushing might be a way to go?
Mark
 

markba633csi

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#73
If you were to put a single slit in the bronze bush then it would stay round as you pinch down on it instead of becoming oval- did you save the old
bushings? You could try it on one of them to test the idea
Mark
 

francist

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#74
Question is, how far can the bushing be compressed before there is a real risk of cracking the unslotted or "hinge side" of the headstock casting?

-frank
 

markba633csi

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#75
You are correct Frank, extreme care must be taken not to crack the pinch part. Might even be advisable to heat the area somewhat and tighten progressively over a
period of days or even weeks. (think braces on your teeth) In a case like this it might be best to stop short of perfection; if the error could be reduced by 60-70% I would consider it good enough.
Mark S.
 

markba633csi

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#76
Perhaps a judicious application of solder in a few areas around the outside of the bronze would help reduce the amount of tightening required without
plugging up the porosity of the bushing too much...?
Mark
 

kopeck

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#77
Hey guys,

Just reading though the ideas. I kept the old bushings so slotting it is an option just to see what happens. I do agree that you would have to be carful with the tension, it would be pretty easy to crack the casting. That being said I do have a decent amount of pressure on there now.

I think you're right that shooting for perfection is not realistic. .006" is to much but I bet .002" would be quite usable.

I think solder would be hard to keep consistent pressure. I would hate to do more damage then good.

Sears still lists the Spindle, $700 bucks and I could be as good as new! :p

K
 

Z2V

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#78
Did you check Clausing for the spindle? Probably less but still sure to be several hundred.
 

bfd

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#79
I started out with the same lathe. great machine. made lots of parts on it. wasn't fast but did the job. I remember on cut I was making in backgear with a hss bit 1/4" deep on 4140 took an hour per pass started the cut went in the house and watched tv while the cut went on. did a great job slow but!! bill
 

kopeck

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#80
Did you check Clausing for the spindle? Probably less but still sure to be several hundred.
I haven't but I suspect it's still hundreds of dollars like you said. There was a very nice looking one on eBay a month or two ago that I missed out on. It was when I had my lathe apart and I knew my spindle wasn't 100%, I saw it at lunch time and when I got home from work I went to buy it and it was gone. I suspect good ones you have to be quick to acquire.

K
 

David S

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#81
Could you lay some brass shim stock over the bushing to reduce the amount of travel to tighten the casting? Once you split the bushing that is.

David
 

kopeck

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#82
OK...I have a plan.

The old busing isn't going to be usable. It's pretty darn worn out (not a big surprise there). I would rather not split my new, OE part as I might need it if I find a new spindle and it wasn't the cheapest thing in the world.

So I'm going to get a new, 1" ID, 1 1/4" OD x 1 1/4" long (I need to double check the OD) sintered bronze bushing, split it and see how it goes. I think the OE bushing is sized slightly different in the ID then a run of the mill bushing but since we're modifying it I don't think it's going to matter.

The split can be lined up with the split in the casting, that will keep the load on the solid face.

I don't see that I have a whole lot to lose. The spindle clearly has issues so I don't think I can make it worse. The only think I'm a little worried about is the split busing rotating in the housing.

K
 

Bob Korves

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#83
Keep on trying to learn about your lathe and get it repaired, but try not to force or break anything or damage anything beyond use. If it gets to looking like it will cost a lot of money and too much effort to fix it, then part it out or sell it as a basket case and move on to a lathe you can cut decent chips with. There is little worse to a newcomer than to be fighting a machine when he really wants to be playing and learning and making nice things. You could probably sell the parts of the machine on eBay for more than you paid for it. But don't give up too early, working on machines is how we learn the nuts and bolts of how they operate. Just remember to stand back at intervals and ask yourself honestly if you are following the best course for what you want to accomplish. Only you can decide...
 
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kopeck

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#84
Keep on trying to learn about your lathe and get it repaired, but try not to force or break anything or damage anything beyond use. If it gets to looking like it will cost a lot of money and too much effort to fix it, then part it out or sell it as a basket case and move on to a lathe you can cut decent chips with. There is little worse to a newcomer than to be fighting a machine when he really wants to be playing and learning and making nice things. You could probably sell the parts of the machine on eBay for more than you paid for it. But don't give up too early, working on machines is how we learn the nuts and bolts of how they operate. Just remember to stand back at intervals and ask yourself honestly if you are following the best course for what you want to accomplish. Only you can decide...
Yeah, I'm not going to force anything but I think this is a worth while experiment. A new bushing is $5.00 and my time.

It has crossed my mind that I could part it out if push came to shove. I'm sure I could get pretty close to breaking even, then just chalk it up to a learning experience. My bed isn't great and the lead screw is toast but it's carriage and compound are in great shape and I have all the gears and those seem to be popular.

I bought this lathe as a tool to learn on, if I can get it to the point where I can cut well enough to do that I'll be happy.

K
 

Z2V

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#86
Have you given thought to repairing your spindle, build it up and turn it back to spec?
 

kopeck

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#90
Don't take my word on it. :)

To be honest I don't have a clue where I could even take it to see if it was possible. The local shop wouldn't be able to do it and the only other machine shop around only does work for industry.

K
 
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