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Craftsman/Atlas 6", what have I gotten my self into?

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kopeck

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#31
It's a 1/3 HP GE continues run motor. My electricians hand book says 14Ga is required.

The issue with the wire that's in there is it's so heavy there's pretty much zero room to work. The wire also predates the motor and switch which are both relatively new.

I'm going to swap it over to some greenfield run my own wire. The way the PO wired it the green wire is hot. :)

K
 

wa5cab

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#32
OK. That sounds like a good idea.
 

kopeck

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#33
Anyone ever had issues getting consisstant pressure across the cone pulleys?

Setting the belt all the way to the left (high speed) the belt is tighter then I like and all the way to the right (low speed) it's to loose.

I know the obvious answer is the counter shaft it not square to the lathe spindle but every way I measure it it should be, or at least the base is. A straight edge shows the pulleys to be in line.

I did over size my holes a bit to try and get some wiggle, I just can't seem to find it's happy place.

K
 

francist

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#34
I've found it's not necessarily the alignment of the countershaft to the spindle, but rather that some of steps on the cone pulleys tend to get used more than others. So the sides of that particular step get worn a bit more than the others resulting in a slightly deeper/loose fit of the belt. Ideally I guess all the steps would see the same wear, but in reality it seems not.

-frank
 

kopeck

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#35
Hi Frank,

I had been wondering if that might be part of the problem. The three slower speeds are much closer on tension then the last step which is the tightest. Just dealing with old stuff I guess.

The other problem I'm trying to work though now is rewiring the GE Serv-S-Line Motor. I wrote down how it was wired BUT I was looking at the diagram on the motor and it doesn't jive with what was going on inside. To be honest the tag doesn't even make sense to me. I've wired 120/220 motors before, this one has me baffled.

K
 

kopeck

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#36
Never mind, I think I get it.

It's been "hacked" a little to work with the drum switch.

I'll check it out with my meter later today.

K
 

wa5cab

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#37
K,

If the motor didn't come set up to be reversed, a PO could have cut the two wires at the ends of the start circuit and pulled them to the outside world.
 

kopeck

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#38
K,

If the motor didn't come set up to be reversed, a PO could have cut the two wires at the ends of the start circuit and pulled them to the outside world.
That's pretty much what I'm seeing. They are suppose attached to terminal blocks but they were cut and then wired into the drum switch. Makes sense now that I've get how the motor works.

I'm getting there...

K
 

kopeck

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#39
Getting back to the pulleys...

After a closer inspection on the counter shaft side there's noticeable wear (by eye) on the slowest step compared to the fastest. The old "stick your finger in there" method of measuring bears this out too. It looks like it was used more or less in the slow speed setting and occasionally in the next two speeds and almost never in high speed. The first three settings I can use with out readjusting, the 4th I would have to tweak a bit. I can live with that, for now anyway.

I was driving my self nuts trying to figure out why the tension was off, some times you need to look at the simple stuff first. Thanks Frank!

K
 

wa5cab

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#40
I hadn't thought of it either but in most cases, the highest speed range gets the least use unless the owner is doing a lot of wood turning or a lot of small aluminum parts.
 

kopeck

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#41
It's together!

IMG_0985.JPG

I made one small pass on a chunk of steel that seems very hard with a right hand tool that looks pretty much worn out. It cut, not well but it cut. :)

A few observations. My three jaw chuck has some serious wobble in it. I chucked up a piece of drill rod and the run out was pretty terrible, I didn't even put an indicator on it, it was visually all over the place. The 4 jaw seems to be OK, although I have to admit getting things chucked in it is a challenge that I'm sure I'll get better at with practice.

Is it common for the bull pin to cone pulley to make a little noise when running with out any load? I'm going to guess it is.

My forward tumbler gear is really worn out. I knew this but running them at speed the noise difference between forward and reverse is really noticeable.

I snugged up the bearings and let it run, everything seems pretty tight but still turns freely. I'm pretty happy over all, I just need to get a tool that cuts (I'll try touching up the one I have) so I can play a little. I can see this thing becoming a bit of a money pit, there's so many things I want/need to really use it and some smaller things I still want to fix.

Sorry for the mess, I'm moving stuff around to make room for the lathe.

K
 

Bob Korves

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#42
My forward tumbler gear is really worn out. I knew this but running them at speed the noise difference between forward and reverse is really noticeable.
Swap them and wear the other gear (and maybe actually keep it clean and lubricated)?
 

kopeck

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#43
The front gear is 20T the rear is 24T. Not sure it matters though, I can try it.

They're clean now and freshly lubed with MAC open gear lube. My god that stuff is messy!

K
 

kopeck

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#44
Well...Something's not right.

I made a few tiny cuts and I stalled my motor twice. Once it stopped with out any load what so ever. The motor is also running very warm. I let it run for a couple of minutes with no load it and it was very uncomfortable to put your hand on.

I suspect something isn't right in the way it's wired. I rewired it exactly the way it was when I got it. Here's the thing, this thing doesn't seem to conform to any wiring diagram I can find online and I'm just a tad confused.

Here's my motor:

IMG_0952.JPG

Every thing I can fine online talks about blue and orange wires, I don't have those. What it says it to swap the red and black wires to reverse directions.

The way it's wired right now is (Dayton Drum switch):

------

1 -> T1

3 -> Jumpered to 5

5 -> Red wire in motor

***

2 -> L1 & Red wire in motor

4 -> A

6 -> L2


---------------

Just running this through my head and against wiring diagrams I've found on line L1 and L2 are swapped but I'm not sure that matter. The drum switch is swapping T1 & A, I guess that's what reversing the motor BUT the red and the black wires are staying the same in forward and reverse.

The red and black wires had terminals on them at one time and were plugged in to 5 & A, the terminals were cut off and wired into the switch.

I can't find much on this motor so I'm not 100% sure what black and red are connected to, one of them has to be the start coil. I think this is a pretty decent motor, I just don't know how to wire the darn thing.

Thanks,

K
 

kopeck

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#45
OK, I think I've figured it out. This is a permanent split capacitor motor which complicates things. Some posts I've read said it can't be reversed with a drum switch, some say it can but you need to do a bunch of testing to figure it out. I've also read that the motor isn't really ideal for my application. It's a high torque start motor but it's not a high torque running motor.

I think I'm going to wire it up like it came from the factory and see how it performs. I can still use the drum switch as an on/off switch, just not to reverse it.

If push comes to shove I have two classics waiting in the wings. A 1/4 HP GE and a 1/2 HP Delco. Both HPs are not ideal but it's better then no HP. ;-)

K
 

kopeck

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#46
Wired it back to single direction, works fine now.

The motor runs much cooler and doesn't seem to be missing a beat. I kind of wonder how the PO used it the way it was wired? Maybe that's the reason it was for sale...

K
 

wa5cab

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#47
About the only thing that you usually need reverse for is for OD grinding (because the grinding wheel is usually going down at point of contact so the work needs to be going up). You do not want to risk doing any turning in reverse while using a screw-on chuck. But if you do decide later that you do need to reverse it, start a new thread and re-post the motor plate photo and add a photo looking into the junction box and one of the drum switch diagram.
 

kopeck

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#48
Yeah, I'm not loosing sleep over missing the the reverse. I think what you would have to do is break L1 with poles 5 & 6 and run L2 straight though, then feed terminals 5 & A back into the switch and use poles 1-4 to swap them around. I would need to draw it out to make sure, this is just off the top of my head.

They way it was wired was 5 & A were not swapped but L1 & L2 were being swapped. That didn't make this motor happy at all.

Right now it's just wired up as an on/off switch. I'm breaking both L1 & L2 because it's what was easiest with the terminals I had installed.

K
 

markba633csi

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#49
Are you sure that is a permanent split cap and not a cap start motor? Do you hear the centrifugal switch clicking when it starts and stops?
Regardless, it should have plenty of torque and should be able to be wired for reverse. Let me know if you want to revisit the wiring for that. Post the pinout of the
drum switch (I've seen several variations) and I can do a sketch.
Mark S.
 

kopeck

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#50
You know everything I've been able to dig up on this motor says it's PSC but it does click on start/stop so that would mean it isn't one correct? Now this motor hasn't been manufactured in years so I've had to fill in the blanks at times.

I honestly haven't played with electric motors very much but I do "get" electricity and like you I think it can be reversed. This is how I think you would have to do it:

Drum Wiring.png


I apologies for the crude diagram and poor hand writing. My biggest worry is getting all that wire stuffed though a 3/8 greenfield conduit unless the red and black wires (start windings?) can be a lighter gauge. I'm pretty sure they're 16 or 18 in the motor. Just to expand on what I've drawn the black wire goes to terminal A and the red goes to terminal 5, to reverse the motor you just swap the wires.

K
 

wa5cab

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#51
L1 and L2 are the Line wires. The switch connects them to both the run winding and the start circuit, which are in parallel.

Normally, if the run to the switch is relatively short, you should use the same size wire as the wires in the motor. If the internal wires are #16, then that would be adequate to the switch. But you would not want to use #18 or #20.
 

kopeck

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#52
Yep, don't disagree with anything you said there. I guess I was thinking out loud, that those two two wires are pretty light but also very short. I'm not sure if adding 2' would create a need for a heavier wire or not.

What I should do is pop the back of the motor off and see if I can isolate & trace the terminals....

K
 

markba633csi

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#53
2' is a trivial amount, don't worry about that. The clicking means it is a cap start motor after all.
Yes you just swap the red and black with respect to their previous connection points to reverse. Piece of cake.
Mark S.
ps make L1 the hot line wire and L2 the neutral, then the drum switch opens the hot when off.
 
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kopeck

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#54
Well...Here's an update.

I got my new QCTP from the Little Machine Shop. My lathe was missing tool holders and the lantern wasn't for my machine so it was either find used Atlas/Craftsman parts of go for the new stuff.

The good news is the it will make chips and the I really like what comes in the kit from LMS, the bad news is I can't get it cut a decent surface. I tried a lot of things. Pretty much every tool in the kit, some HHS that was already ground, speeds, feeds, every combo I could cook up. I could see the see the piece move a bit when the tool made contact with the steel so I snugged up the bushings a tad more which made things a bit better but I deiced to look the slop a bit more.

Turns out I seem to have quite a bit of play in the spindle. I put a indicator on the chuck and I'm getting .005" play up and down and .002" side to side. The up and down play takes very little effort to move, the back and forth I have to push firmly on the chuck. All that seems like a lot to me, especially measuring at the chuck. I kind of think this might be at the root of some of my issues, some of it could be the hardware store steel that I've heard doesn't machine well.

I did install new bushings, they're about as tight as I dare make them. There's a fine line between things turning and not. The spindle did have some wear, I was hoping it could be adjusted out.

Needless to say I'm pretty bummed. I may just buy some 12L14 to see how much of it's the steel. I knew this was an older machine with some wear and I really just want to learn but I was hoping for a bit better results. Obviously being new also factors in.

Oh and me lead screw had a dead spot in it. Man when it rains...

K
 

wa5cab

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#55
I would suggest that you start off practicing with aluminum. It is for example virtually impossible to get a decent finish on galvanized pipe except by sanding it.

What do you mean by "the lead screw had a dead spot in it"?
 

kopeck

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#56
Sorry, I wrote that late and not in the best mood.

I'll get some aluminum and some 12L14, what's the best flavor of aluminum for people who have no clue like me? From what I've read the stuff I was trying to turn is probably A36 and not a good option.

The thread are worn near the head stock so the carriage just stops. It's hard to see by eye but they're really worn for about 2". I think this machine was used to thread a lot in it previous life. The back gear is worn pretty well and I had to replace a couple of other gears as they were worn pretty badly. I wouldn't mind replacing the screw with a better one but I want to see if this is a useable machine before I do anything else.

To add insult to injury there a Atlas 10D for sale close by that comes much better equipped then my 6" did and for just a little more then I paid for my 6". Then again the devil you know vs the devil you don't.

K
 

wa5cab

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#58
Bob,

Practically speaking, no. The right end of the lead screw is turned down for the right bearing. That would have to be cut off, the other end turned down, and the right bearing relocated to the left.

K,

I'm sure that there are others today but the sorta default alloy for parts that were to be machined and were not to be formed (bent) was 6061T6. It is or was available in both plate and bar.
 

wa5cab

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#59
The threads are worn near the head stock so the carriage just stops. It's hard to see by eye but they're really worn for about 2".
K
K,

Then it would appear that your only option is to source a replacement. And if you haven't already, replace the half-nuts or split nuts.
 

kopeck

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#60
K,

Then it would appear that your only option is to source a replacement. And if you haven't already, replace the half-nuts or split nuts.
Yep. There's a couple on ebay right now. I'm a little gun shy on spending more money on the machine at the moment though. I' worried about the spindle. Doesn't .006" deflection up and down seem like a lot? I know some deflection is going to be there simple because we're talking bronze bushing and that has to be some clearance.

L
 
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