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Cleaning and inspecting my new Clausing 6913

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papa-roe

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#1
As I said in the initial thread..the lathe is in the middle of the garage and I have no inclination to move it further. I actually like it there, especially as I clean and inspect because I have full access (give or take a messy pile of 'stuff'). I ran 20 amp, 220 power to the VFD yesterday. I have single phase power to the vfd, I have 3 phase power coming out of the vfd, 3 phase power at the lathe but the VFD is not powering up. I have power through the VFD but no LEDs and no controls. I ordered a new VFD and I moved on to cleaning after that.
I took the tail stock off, removed the ram, hand wheel, knobs and base. The key for the ram is broken. From what I have read, that is common. There are a lot crevices with years of crud and metal chips but mineral spirits and a wire brush are quickly revealing a pretty decent surface with good paint. I need to remove some surface rust from the handwheel. I have some stubborn spots in the cavity around the cam shaft that needs further attention. I will get it lubed and put back together in the morning (before I forget where everything goes). I took the panels off the headstock pedestal and they cleaned up nice as well. It is nice to see paint under all of the grime.

I'm a little concerned about the headstock spindle. Turning it by hand, it turns freely for 1/2 to 3/4 revolutions and then it grabs and releases again. Thinking about it, I will check the belts and pullys. The lathe has been sitting up for 5 years so the belts may be stiff and complaining about moving around. I'm the same way when I get up in the morning.
 

Silverbullet

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#2
Sounds like you are having a good time with her. She does sound like her belts are stiff , may have some drag from the speed changer . Tuff to tell something just by a small movement . Unless it isn't supposed to move at all. When I saw your picture you posted it was grimy I kinda new the paint would look good. Good luck and have fun , great lathe to own . YA done good.
 

machPete99

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#3
You might want to remove the belts to evaluate spindle bearings, which you probably should not touch them if you don't need to. Original bearings are likely very high precision and hard to get/expensive.
 

Dhector

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You might want to remove the belts to evaluate spindle bearings, which you probably should not touch them if you don't need to. Original bearings are likely very high precision and hard to get/expensive.
I priced the spindle bearings just last week. The one away from the Chuck is nla and one by the Chuck is made to order and non returnable. Ready for the price?? 1500.00 and change!
 

chips&more

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#5
Not sure what you mean when you say “grabs”? The spindle SHOULD NOT spin freely and coast to a stop. The spindle bearings are pre-loaded. I can’t remember the preload specs, sorry. It’s something like spindle makes one turn with a snappy jerk, face plate attached. I would just turn the spindle by hand and try and feel for roughness. If it turns smooth, you should be good, just check with your manual and maybe adjust preload, this is important! And clean/flush out the head stock cavity and put in fresh oil…Dave
 

papa-roe

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Not sure what you mean when you say “grabs”? The spindle SHOULD NOT spin freely and coast to a stop. The spindle bearings are pre-loaded. I can’t remember the preload specs, sorry. It’s something like spindle makes one turn with a snappy jerk, face plate attached. I would just turn the spindle by hand and try and feel for roughness. If it turns smooth, you should be good, just check with your manual and maybe adjust preload, this is important! And clean/flush out the head stock cavity and put in fresh oil…Dave
It turned out that the hand wheel is on crooked and is rubbing as it comes around. Two pictures attached. One showing where it is rubbing and the other from the top.
 

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papa-roe

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#7
It turned out that the hand wheel is on crooked and is rubbing as it comes around. Two pictures attached. One showing where it is rubbing and the other from the top.
I took the hand wheel off and while I was at it, I removed the back cover and the top of the headstock cavity. I thought the oil looked pretty good until I felt around and found some chunks of metal near the drain. A couple of the gears look like one edge of the teeth got chewed up. They look worse than the pictures show but not terribly bad. I drained it but I will need to fish around with a magnet to get the metal out. They were too big for the drain hole. I need to get cleaned up and go to class so that will be left for tomorrow.
 

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Dhector

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I took the hand wheel off and while I was at it, I removed the back cover and the top of the headstock cavity. I thought the oil looked pretty good until I felt around and found some chunks of metal near the drain. A couple of the gears look like one edge of the teeth got chewed up. They look worse than the pictures show but not terribly bad. I drained it but I will need to fish around with a magnet to get the metal out. They were too big for the drain hole. I need to get cleaned up and go to class so that will be left for tomorrow.
I had my cover off mine a while ago and cleaned it out as well but cant remember what the gear conditions were(thinking that if i saw anything to be worried about, I would have posted it, but since I didnt, my guess is they werent of any concern to me) If I get a chance Ill pop that cover off and look at mine to see what they look like and maybe post it so you can see them to compare yours to. In your "Cover removed" picture it looks to me like there is a bolt missing from your gearbox engagement lever assembly. Would probably not have noticed it but I had a heck of a time figuring mine out when I got my lathe. Heres the thread. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-clausing-6913-gear-box-engagement-lever-fixed.58490/
Chunks being too big for the drain hole seem as a concern to me. From what I remember the hole isnt huge, but it wasnt small either. Im not sure but I wonder if that wear is from trying to engage the back gear. It can be a little finicky to engage. Do it by turning the chuck by hand till it engages. If the spindle is spinning at all it will grind(obviously)
 

papa-roe

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I had my cover off mine a while ago and cleaned it out as well but cant remember what the gear conditions were(thinking that if i saw anything to be worried about, I would have posted it, but since I didnt, my guess is they werent of any concern to me) If I get a chance Ill pop that cover off and look at mine to see what they look like and maybe post it so you can see them to compare yours to. In your "Cover removed" picture it looks to me like there is a bolt missing from your gearbox engagement lever assembly. Would probably not have noticed it but I had a heck of a time figuring mine out when I got my lathe. Heres the thread. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-clausing-6913-gear-box-engagement-lever-fixed.58490/
Chunks being too big for the drain hole seem as a concern to me. From what I remember the hole isnt huge, but it wasnt small either. Im not sure but I wonder if that wear is from trying to engage the back gear. It can be a little finicky to engage. Do it by turning the chuck by hand till it engages. If the spindle is spinning at all it will grind(obviously)
The back gear has identical chunks missing. A lot of things become clearer when you can see the gears as they engage. I will need to look at those pics again so that I can see what you see.
 

papa-roe

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The back gear has identical chunks missing. A lot of things become clearer when you can see the gears as they engage. I will need to look at those pics again so that I can see what you see.
The back gear has identical chunks missing. A lot of things become clearer when you can see the gears as they engage. I will need to look at those pics again so that I can see what you see.
O
The back gear has identical chunks missing. A lot of things become clearer when you can see the gears as they engage. I will need to look at those pics again so that I can see what you see.
Okay. I see the missing bolt that you see. Or rather I don't see the bolt that you don't see. lol Thanks, for pointing it out. The more i study this machine the less intimidating but I'm certainly not to the point where I recognize when something is missing. Like the bolt.
 

Dhector

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#11
I can gaurantee I wouldn't have seen it if mine didn't have an issue with they very part. I pulled mine apart an excessive amount of times!!!! I'm sure I don't have to tell you but check that oil level as well. When I got mine it was totally empty!
 

papa-roe

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#12
I got my magnet down into the drain area of the headstock. The debris looks like welding BBs that got smashed by the gears. There is a piece of one tooth, some turned chips and assorted residue. head stock trash.jpg
 

TakeDeadAim

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#13
IF you have single phase going into the VFD and Three phase coming out then the VFD must be doing something. If the unit were dead it would not be converting single into 3 phase. I double checked mine, Hatachi, and it as no output unless the unit is powered up.
 

Dhector

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I got my magnet down into the drain area of the headstock. The debris looks like welding BBs that got smashed by the gears. There is a piece of one tooth, some turned chips and assorted residue. View attachment 244569
Theres a ball chain inside that gear box. I wonder if thats where the "BB's" came from. I wish I would have taken pics of mine with the cover off now. On your "chowdered teeth.JPG" i see a chain. I BELIEVE that should be a ball chain. My gearbox has a ball chain in it but not sure on location(due to memory), but it is in there, and in that gearbox. I wonder if someone in the past broke the "Ball chain- part number 051-045 on page 21.1 in the owners manual) and put that chain in there to take its place. My assumption is it used to bring oil up to the shaft an gears for lubrication. I really nned to get my cover off and take some pics for you.
 

Wreck™Wreck

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I got my magnet down into the drain area of the headstock. The debris looks like welding BBs that got smashed by the gears. There is a piece of one tooth, some turned chips and assorted residue. View attachment 244569
There is a loop of ball chain in the head stock, it hangs loosely around one of the shafts and rotates through the oil dragging it up for lubrication.
 

papa-roe

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I see what you are talking about. That makes sense that it might have broken and someone replaced it with a link chain. That also explains the the wire like things coming out of the BBs. The link chain is doing it's job. I noticed the other day that it was bringing oil up to the shaft. That is certainly a more appealing explanation than ball bearings that broke loose.
 
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papa-roe

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#18
I supplied power to the VFD today and the lathe is running well. Earlier (October 15th) I was having issues. I had a broken ground wire and I was only supplying 20amps when the VFD calls for 30amps (my mistake). I got those two issues resolved and all is well. I refilled the headstock with DTE 24 and added DTE 26 to the quick change gear box to bring it up to level. I ran it just long enough set some parameters on the VFD, run the lead screw forward and reverse and see how well it powered the carriage. I ended up shearing the aluminum rivet that a former owner had put in place of the original shear pin. It might have worked if it wasn't so much smaller than the hole.
I set the display to show rpm rather than hertz. I dialed it in and now it is showing pretty accurately with a low of 87 at 3 hertz to 1735 at 60 hertz. I put the 3 jaw chuck on and put an indicator on it. It runs true within 4. btw those chucks are heavy. Luckily, I knew to put a board across the bed to prevent damage. I need to finish cleaning this week so that I can get serious with my new toy.
 
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Dhector

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I finally got the cover off my machine and got some pics for you to compare to. I didnt get a decent pic of the teeth wear but what I saw in yours was similar to mine. Didnt seem to be a concern in my opinion.

IMG_20171026_160721000.jpg
 

papa-roe

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#20
I got carried and and removed the saddle, apron and lead screw to start cleaning. Dhector look at the threading dial gear (DL-628). It doesn't look anything like the picture on page 33-2 (33-1 for the earlier lathe version) in the manual (lower right of page). I have both versions of the manual. lol apron mostly clean.JPG dirty compound, cross slide and taper attach.JPG dirty saddle, tool post, cross slide assy.JPG threading dial gear.JPG apron mostly clean.JPG
 
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Dhector

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I put mine back together to make a new bushing for the worm gear on the inside(towards the ways, not towards the operator) I have the bushing made but will have to tear mine back apart to install. I will look when I can. MIGHT be tomorrow to tear it apart but it depends on time. I will look though and see what it looks like in the manual, and mine.
 

papa-roe

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I got most of the the carriage assy cleaned, I set the lead screw inside the bed and forgot about it. I ended up taking the taper attachment completely apart because the chips were hard packed under the slide. Tomorrow, I need to study for a test that I will be taking on Monday. When I finish that priority, I hope to begin polishing the bare metal, prepping the painted parts for new paint and putting as much of it back together as possible. I had not planned to paint but there are a lot of bare spots. I bought smoke gray, hunter green and leather brown. I am going to mix them in quarter cup increments until I find 'THE' color I am looking for. Once I get the ratio, I will mix enough to give it a fresh coat. The weather has turned cold so I may not get to paint until it warms back up.
 

Dhector

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#23
I'll take pics of mine but that looks correct to me from what I saw on mine when I cleaned that gear up. Put some pics of the inside of the apron where the worm gear and bushing are. Also please put a pic of the worm gear itself, mine has taper on both ends and I'm attempting to remedy that with a custom bushing, and a custom tapered shim for the other end. Not sure it will work, but hoping.
Hector
 

Dhector

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#24
By the way the worm gear on mine I assume had a flat face which mine does not anymore due to never being cleaned in my opinion. Wear happens. The bad thing about it is the "non bushing side" wears into the cast iron apron. That's where my idea of a custom tapered shim comes into play. Crossing my fingers it will work and prevent wear to the casting from here on out!
 

papa-roe

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By the way the worm gear on mine I assume had a flat face which mine does not anymore due to never being cleaned in my opinion. Wear happens. The bad thing about it is the "non bushing side" wears into the cast iron apron. That's where my idea of a custom tapered shim comes into play. Crossing my fingers it will work and prevent wear to the casting from here on out!
I will need to look tomorrow to get a better idea of what you are referring to. I see the worm gear in the manual but it shows it is on the pinion shaft. It is amazing that a month ago these pictures looked like hieroglyphics. Now that I am opening covers and looking around, taking things apart. cleaning and such, I am seeing the lathe and the manual in a whole new light.
 

Dhector

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#26
The worm gear I'm refering to is the 934-010 in the "apron assembly includes page 33" of the manual. The bushing I made is part number Q-392. One other thing I ran into was watch the theading lever when reinstalling the half nuts. It CAN get out of time. Easy to fix, but keep and eye out for it.
 
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papa-roe

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Even after you told me where to find it. It took about 10 minutes to see it on the page. Got it! I will take pictures tomorrow.
 

papa-roe

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I hadn't planned to take the worm gear out but that was the only way to photograph it. Even after taking it out, it was hard to get a good picture. I finally got the right lighting and focus. I'm glad you 'forced' me to take it out. The worm gear is in pretty good shape except for some pitting on the bearing surfaces but the bushings are worn pretty bad. The wall thickness varies from .08 on bottom to .175 on top. The id is egg shaped. Both the gear and the bushings have random grooves where swarf got in. I am learning a lot from you. Scary isn't it?
 

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Dhector

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I hadn't planned to take the worm gear out but that was the only way to photograph it. Even after taking it out, it was hard to get a good picture. I finally got the right lighting and focus. I'm glad you 'forced' me to take it out. The worm gear is in pretty good shape except for some pitting on the bearing surfaces but the bushings are worn pretty bad. The wall thickness varies from .08 on bottom to .175 on top. The id is egg shaped. Both the gear and the bushings have random grooves where swarf got in. I am learning a lot from you. Scary isn't it?

Considering I've only been doing HOBBY machining for less than a year it is scary that you are learning from me(kind of cool though to)!!! Actually it might be kind of scary you are listening me!!!!! I'm no pro so I hope I don't steer you wrong. I'm learning too, as WE go really. Its nice to have the same machines to compare and have a picture backup capability instead of just the manuals. I wont have time to tear mine apart to replace the bushing(maybe for at least a couple weeks, work and then elk season the following week)

If you want I will send you the bushing I made and a custom shim(needs made yet) if you would like. I can't gaurantee they are perfect(They will almost for sure need fine tuned) but I won't be needing them for a while(and I can make another one) You need one sooner than I do so if you want, send me a pm with your name and address and I'll send it to you. All you have to pay for is nothing!!! I have modified the length from stock basically to give room for adjustment to compensate for wear. I,m going to run my worm gear(looks very similar to yours with the wear) Both parts are available still but if there is wear in the apron, it really wont fix the problem I was having(and over 300.00 for both parts) My thoughts is if you put a square ended worm gear in a worn apron(tapered where the square worm gear will ride) it will just wear them both quicker. Im going to save the money, modify it and get a little experience doing it(or a lot if I have to make it several times!!!!:))
 

Dhector

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Here is what my idea is for the custom fix(hopefully) The shim is tapered on both sides(it was eyeballed so i'm sure it isnt perfect) and it will go in first, then the worm gear and then the mating surfaces will be rubbing the shim, rather than the cast iron apron housing. The bushing is longer on both ends. The outside right hand edge may need to be shortened to fit, but it isnt really critical since it doesnt touch the worm gear. The worm gear makes contact internally(which is just to the left of the drain hole you see in the pic) It is tapered as well internally. My thoughts is when the worm gear and the bushing and shim wear to one another, a little adjusting and it should be a nice fit(in my head anyway) After adjusting after running for an amount of time(not sure how long, (2 days, 10 years, no clue) the oil drain in the bushing, will probably need to be elongated to keep it above the drain hole in the apron and allow it to drain the the apron cavity. The left end of the bushing I made longer to allow for further adjustment in the future(a new drain hole may need to be drilled and a new set screw countersink, but at least there is enough material to take up slack). I sure hope all this works the way I think it might. The stock bushing had a small .037 groove in the outside of it. I didnt cut that in on the one I sent. Not sure if it needs it or not, just didnt get that far. I also didnt countersink where the set screw goes in. My plan was to put it back together, run the set screw in to mark it, and then drill it. I think that is a pretty important step that needs to be done. If it isnt in there I could see the worm gear POSSIBLY pushing the bushing out and that in my mind could be a big issue! It will be sent off this afternoon. The wife works for the Post Office so she grabbed it at lunch and will send it your way. Any feed back, positive or negative I'd like to hear. If it wont work, I'd like to know(although I'd really like to get a message saying it all worked perfectly:))


IMG_20171030_111836972.jpg

I just threw this in there for comparison. This pic is the "before fixed" pic. Just an orientation of the above pic.
8.jpg
 
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