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Cincinnati LL horizontal mill

Discussion in 'CINCINNATI MILLING MACHINE HEAVY IRON' started by Plum Creek, Apr 2, 2017.

  1. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I just picked up a dial type Cincinnati #2, LL, horizontal mill. Ordinarily I would be pretty jazzed but the odds of this machine ever putting out parts look pretty slim. It has no tooling or arbor and is in pretty sad shape, but I knew that when I bought it. It may end up as a parts donor, but at least it didn't end up at the scrappers I guess. Still kind of sad to see though.
     
  2. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    What spindle taper does it have? You could always get a couple collets and use it like a vertical mill on it's side. I do that with mine quite often.
    Mark S.
     
  3. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The only LL manual I could find indicates a #50 INT taper.
    Its going to take a while to clean up enough of the damage to test it.
    Todays task are to scope the inside of the column for rust, and test the main motor. When they drained all the fluids they left the cap off the column fill and we've been getting lots of rain.
     
  4. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I didn't get the motor tested, but it was free and bearings sound decent. Flushed and drained what was left in the gearboxes, and filled the column with DTE medium and rotated by hand. No unusual sounds, shifts and moves oil through the sight glass. Fwd/rev selector handle broken through the pin.
    Moved the sight gauge from the coolant to the knee to replace the one they drove a screwdriver or bar through. I guess it was easier than removing the plug.
    I also cleaned and lubed the overarm and its drive. It works well now.
    Knee motor is free.
    The table trip lever (above the open hole) is stuck hard and will probably require removal of the table.
    IMG_3331.jpg IMG_3333.jpg

    IMG_3332.jpg IMG_3316.jpg
     
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  5. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hello @Plum Creek,

    Your "new" machine doesn't look much worse than mine when I first found it:
    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/gallery/early-peek.94581/

    I spent extra care cleaning the sand and dirt out of all the oil channels that the wasps had left behind....vacuum, wire, wire "bottle" brushes, pipe cleaners and lots of rags and time!

    I started by going over the machine and removing the loose crud and hitting every moving part and oil hole with a 50/50 mix of ATF (automatic transmission fluid) and acetone. If you can let whatever is stuck sit with that on, and even refreshing the fluid for a few days, you might be able to loosen things up.

    Once things were loose I switched over to ISO-32 tractor hydraulic oil. I bought some old sight-glass, drip-feed oilers and some new gits type oilers.

    I slowly leaning all the controls while still turning the flywheel by hand.

    I am not sure how the Cincinnati "LL" differs from the other models......are you?
    There are a few manuals here:
    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/categories/cincinnati-except-grinders.30/

    and at leaast some of that should apply to your machine, because mine was made in 1916 and is very similar to those manuals is some respects.

    Good Luck, and please keep us informed!

    -brino
     
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  6. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hi brino

    Thanks, Yea they both look pretty rough. Is that you in the pic? ;)

    At this point I am using mostly orange glo hand cleaner, rags, wire brushes, small brass brushes on the ways, way oil, 3in1 oil, Heat gun on the paint where there are no seals etc.

    Its a 1962 Dial type, #2J2P5L-6. According to what I read, it is a 205MI plain model. Its all hydraulic feed and oiling, no 1 shot or oil cups anywhere. I don't know have any information on the LL designator yet.

    Thanks for the heads up on the manuals. I found a manual that is pretty close over at Vintage. I have seen a few Videos of a Cincinnati Horiz mill being operated and combined with the manual I think I am beginning to get a grasp of the operation.

    Is yours up and running?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
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  7. FOMOGO

    FOMOGO United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That's quite the project. Table looks to be in pretty nice shape, with just the one cutter mark on it. It would be a real iron eater if you get it up and running. Cheers, Mike
     
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  8. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I guess I forgot to mention that little nugget, didn't I!
    Yes it is running.

    My goal was to have it running for it's 100th birthday in 2016, and I did have it running before that.
    Here's some proof:
    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/a-tiny-rack-for-a-microscope.35680/
    ...and there's a few more of my projects here somewhere, but I cannot find them.

    -brino
     
  9. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Awesome job brino, on both the machine and the microscope! I wouldn't have thought of using a flycutter on that.
     
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  10. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks Mike. It is a quite a project. Its kind of a low priority which gives me more time to research my next step. We just got 7" of rain so today is a cleanup day in the shop. Hopefully I can get the table off.
     
  11. FOMOGO

    FOMOGO United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Wow! 7" is a bunch of water. Hope it didn't do too much damage. Mike
     
  12. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    Got to love machines made to last forever. ,God I wish I weren't so screwed up. Sure would love a big ole mill and a lathe made during the war years. In my opinion we built our best machines during that time. Someday for sure if I live long enough ill have them , I've been cheated by disability but ill find away if it takes ten years. Proud to see your new beauty , few parts little paint some oil and she, ll be making chips as big as quarters. Good luck with her.
     
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  13. ghostdncr

    ghostdncr United States Active Member Active Member

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    What a great find. That machine will make chips big enough to put back in the steel rack for average-sized projects!
     
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  14. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Actually 6 to 7" rains are fairly common here. It was pretty spotty this time, we only got .25 at the house in south Austin but got nearly 7" at the ranch near San Marcos 25 miles away. I understand Waco got 12"! I haven't checked the fences yet.

    Silverbullet, thanks, I agree with you. I worked for a tillage tool mfg out of High school, that place was filled with war Iron. Cincinnati and Ajax are all I can remember but those machines never wore out! Hang in there you will get what you want!

    ghostdncr, the jury is still out on whether its a great find, but I'm encouraged so far. I like your comment, I hope it works out!

    I think I have the Y feed issue sorted out now so I have movement on all three axis in the manual mode. I have the table ready to lift tomorrow. Everything is really packed with grime and cuttings so I may have to pull the saddle as well. I'll know more then.
     
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  15. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Not much progress yet.
    My research indicates that the LL designator is merely a bookmark in the evolution of these machines. This machine seems to be a variant. Based on the speed and gearbox, the column and gearbox are pre LL, the rest of the machine is post LL. It makes me wonder if they were aging their columns and had a backlog of columns they need to use up.

    The 5 coats of paint is soaking up LOTS of orange paint stripper. Evaporust is slowly removing the rust spot on the ways.
    The table trip lever that was stuck is now free and seems to shift normally.
    I haven't removed the table yet. I completed the procedure in the manual but there are conflicts. No big thing, just don't to damage anything by getting in a hurry.

    I have questions that I hope someone can help answer.
    The LL should have an Arbor Lock type system on it. This one doesn't have the outer locking ring, nor does it have a draw bolt. Are the draw bolt/arbor/spindle a single piece?
    IMG_3368.jpg IMG_3387.jpg
    I would also like to identify the two (of 4) hardened bars that I found in the coolant tank. There are no numbers so they are probably not mfg by Cincinnati.
    And lastly, what is the clamp on the overarm used for?
    Wow thats a really bad pic. I will get another today.
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Finally got the table off... Removing the knockout bar was a struggle. I had to "jus walk away" several times. Finally it slid right out no fuss....
    Lots of hardened grease and cosmoline inside. Some heavy scoring on the inside face of the rear v, from the left apron in about 8". No corresponding marks on the table, although I haven't flipped it over to examine it thoroughly yet. Some flaking still visible on the uppers.
    IMG_3407.JPG IMG_3409.JPG IMG_3414.jpg IMG_3417.jpg
     
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  17. brino

    brino Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I believe you mean the horizontal spindle support bracket that is sitting on your table in the second picture of your post #4 above, right?

    Check out this book:
    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/cincinnati-a-treatise-on-milling-and-milling-machines.2771/

    Here's a picture of one in use (from that book):
    upload_2017-5-7_20-26-43.png

    Note this machine has the solid round overarm (like mine) not the dovetail overarm they used on "newer" machines like yours.
    Also note that picture also shows an A-frame support that bolts tot the knee for even more rigidity.
    The list of parts is on the next page of that book.

    Hopefully that scoring you found is only for a limited length (much shorter than the dovetails) so it will be "averaged out".

    -brino
     
  18. Plum Creek

    Plum Creek United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Actually its the device clamped to the end of the overarm. Its hard to see in the photo. Sorry got busy with other stuff and forgot get a better pic.

    The scoring goes in about 8" then stops. I find it odd that there's no scoring on the table.

    Thank you for posting "treatise" I know that was quite a bit of work.
    I had looked at it some time earlier. It's a interesting look back at not only the beginning of these machines and their operation, but at culture as well.
     
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