Can I Reverse This 1ph 230V Taiwanese Motor

Canuck75

Active User
H-M Supporter Gold Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
233
I looked at all the threads in this forum and found one thread which was on topic buit dealt with a Chinese 110V motor. The 110V motors have different wiring colours/numbers so still need some help.


I've included a full wiring diagram exactly as it is currently wired up on my King PDM30 (RF31 style) bench mill. I am curious if, by using a rotary switch, I can reverse this motor by switching some of the wires? If so which ones?

Would appreciate any help.


IMG_6717.jpg

IMG_6717.jpg
 

Attachments

  • img962.jpg
    2.9 MB · Views: 8
Yes,
you can use a drum(rotary) switch to reverse directions.
the wires are 5 and 6 are responsible for the direction the motor turns.
if wire 4 and 5 are paired up it will turn one direction.
conversely, if you pair wire 4 with wire 6 it will rotate the opposite direction in relation to the 4,5 pairing.

if you can post a picture of the drum switch and the motor wiring i could easily figure out a solution for you.
we can configure in a couple different ways.

shoot me a PM when you are ready, i'll walk you through it.
 
Yes,
you can use a drum(rotary) switch to reverse directions.
the wires are 5 and 6 are responsible for the direction the motor turns.
if wire 4 and 5 are paired up it will turn one direction.
conversely, if you pair wire 4 with wire 6 it will rotate the opposite direction in relation to the 4,5 pairing.

if you can post a picture of the drum switch and the motor wiring i could easily figure out a solution for you.
we can configure in a couple different ways.

shoot me a PM when you are ready, i'll walk you through it.


The switch is a Dayton with 5 terminals as per these pictures.

IMG_6684.jpgIMG_6696.jpg


REV position in the following left hand picture and FWD position in the right hand picture.
IMG_6691.jpgIMG_6692.jpg

The motor wiring is exactly as per the diagram I attached to my thread.

IMG_6684.jpg IMG_6696.jpg IMG_6691.jpg IMG_6692.jpg
 
Last edited:
the wiring will go like this in reference to photos above:


x(not used)________________wire 4



wire 6 _______________________ wire 5



2/3 paired wire______________________x (not used)

click on image below for larger picture...

drum switch0001.jpg

does this make any sense ?
i might be able to explain differently if necessary

drum switch0001.jpg
 
Last edited:
GAWWWW-LEEEEE youse guys!!! I JUST got done writing up the text for what I was going to start as a new thread here, regarding that very same Dayton drum switch and a 230 volt reversing motor. And here ya done got it started already!!!

Anyway, the following is the ORIGINAL text and photos I was about to post. It's posed as a question, because I'm not absolutely sure my "new" solution is valid. If it sounds like it's just a slight bit off-topic, my apologies. I'm just a bit too lazy to re-write the whole durn thing:

== == == == == == == == == == == == ==

About a month ago I bought a vintage (1990) Grizzly DF1224G/G1003 12x24 lathe. As purchased, it would run OK in reverse but only buzz when switched to forward. When I got it home I checked the existing drum-type switch, and it just about fell apart in my hands. The 2HP motor had been wired for 115 volts, which spec’d out at 18 amps - no wonder the switch was toast!

I bought a new Dayton 2X440 drum switch and started puzzling out how to wire it. The data plate inside the motor, as well as what diagrams I could find in the manual, called for connecting the two run coils (motor wires 1-3 and 2-4) in series, and connecting the start coil (motor wires 5-6) between the common point (2&3) and L2. To reverse the motor, the 5-6 leads are interchanged. The photo (thanks to Chris, aka Shadowdog500) shows a similar (3/4HP) motor’s connection data plate.

1Photo.jpg

Unfortunately, the above scheme requires 6 conductors between the motor and the switch enclosure (1, 2-3, 4, 5, 6, and ground). Six conductor cables are about as easy to find as hen’s teeth! In addition, because the Dayton switch has only 6 contacts, there’s no choice but to leave L1 connected to the motor at all times! Yes, I did mount a local service disconnect ... but nevertheless, leaving a motor connected to a live wire gives me the willies. See schematic below.

2Schematic.gif

Recently I found another Grizzly 12x24 lathe manual to download, and it had what I *think* is a viable alternative. The idea is to permanently wire one end of the start winding (5) to the common point between the run windings (2-3), then switch the other end of the start winding (6) between L1 and L2.

In theory, the common point (2-3-5) will be at neutral potential, so the start winding, whose other end is switched to either L1 or L2, will always be seeing just a nominal 115 volts (then go to zero when the centrifugal switch kicks out).

The nice thing about this scheme is that (1) it only requires 4 conductors between the motor and switch box, and (2) BOTH L1 and L2 are safely disconnected when the switch is set to the center position.

3Schematic.gif

My question for any motor electricians here is: Am I OK on this? What might I be missing?

PS - The data sheet that came with the Dayton drum switch was absolutely no joy. Note that both of the schematics for “Single Phase” and “Induct. Repulsion” indicate a continuous connection between one side of the power line and the motor.

4diagrams.jpg

Thanks!

1Photo.jpg 2Schematic.gif 3Schematic.gif 4diagrams.jpg
 
Canuck75 -

I just noticed something about your switch photos. Your switch appears to have just 5 contact, whereas mine has 6. Did you remove one, or do we have different switches? Yours is labeled 2X440A, and I'm not sure if mine has the appended A or not (it's in Oregon, and I'm in Arizona).

kkHPIM3181.jpg

I guess if somebody says my scheme is OK and you wanted to copy it, you could move one of the center contacts to the end. I don't use one of the center contacts.

I really hope this all works out!

kkHPIM3181.jpg
 
Canuck75 -

I just noticed something about your switch photos. Your switch appears to have just 5 contact, whereas mine has 6. Did you remove one, or do we have different switches? Yours is labeled 2X440A, and I'm not sure if mine has the appended A or not (it's in Oregon, and I'm in Arizona).

View attachment 82193

I guess if somebody says my scheme is OK and you wanted to copy it, you could move one of the center contacts to the end. I don't use one of the center contacts.

I really hope this all works out!




Thanks for the replies and advice. First off I was given the Dayton switch, and, based on your question and the diagram inside the switch I see it is indeed missing one of the contact arms at position 1. This will be the first thing to correct if necessary.

I was also glad to read your discussion about the motor still having a live lead attached to it when the switch is in the OFF position due to these limited contact switches. This really worried me.

I checked my SB lathe which has a contactor panel on the back controlling a FWD/REV 2hp 1ph motor, and I see all the wires (5 plus the ground) out of the motor run to the contactor blocks in the panel. The blocks are wired the same except for a couple of jumpers which switch the FWD/REV wires. Looks easy but I noticed that there are only coloured wires out of the motor, no numbers and no diagram that I could find. Hope I don't have to take that apart.

I will give your information a good study to try and resolve my setup and in the meantime any other advice would be appreciated.

As an afterthought here is the diagram from inside the mill motor cover. Compare that to the drawing I posted of how my machine is currently wired and it shows a slight difference in that Red 4 (from the motor diagram) has to be going through the reset breaker solo wheras my machine has the 4 and 6 motor leads tied together prior to the reset breaker then on to the Black power wire. Notice it doesn't show a reverse setup which got me going on this in the first place.

IMG_6715.jpg

Thanks
Canuck75

IMG_6715.jpg
 
Last edited:
Canuck -

I guess the whole thing can get more and more confusing as you add components like contactors, etc. And then there's the issue of which wire number/color goes where and does what. I've looked at wiring diagrams from several Chinese tools, and the lack of detail (especially the internal operation of the contactors) can rapidly add to the fun. Many times, all they'll show is terminal numbers/letters. Can you predict that a replacement component will use the same scheme? Let's roll the dice!

That said, contactors are necessary if you want to have pushbutton start/stop controls, if your lathe has a directional switch on the carriage, etc. My lathe is old enough that it had none of those, just a reverse-stop-forward switch on the headstock. I didn't want to buy a bunch of new stuff and tackle a redesign of the system - just hit the "easy button," get a heavy-duty replacement for the original switch, and get going.

You'll notice lots of detail on my schematics. I did take the time to do enough tracing that I could understand where each wire went and what each terminal did. Lots of work up front, but if I ever have to get in there again, I'll have something complete to refer to.

I've also learned, from this discussion, Shadowdog500's post, and some additional info I found on the interweb, that a goodly number of Chinese 115/230 volt 6-wire motors seem to be wired (and numbered) similarly (colors optional). Wires 1-3 and 2-4 are the two run windings, parallel for 115 volts, series for 230 volts; 5-6 are the start winding. Each individual winding likes 115 volts. You get reversal by either leaving the run winding connections the same and inverting the polarity of the start winding (as I did), or by keeping the start winding the same and inverting the run winding. The latter scheme is shown in the last diagram at ​http://www.justanswer.com/electrical/7qqvn-trying-wire-dayton-2x440a-drum-switch-foward-reverse.html

As an afterthought here is the diagram from inside the mill motor cover. Compare that to the drawing I posted of how my machine is currently wired and it shows a slight difference in that Red 4 (from the motor diagram) has to be going through the reset breaker solo wheras my machine has the 4 and 6 motor leads tied together prior to the reset breaker then on to the Black power wire. Notice it doesn't show a reverse setup which got me going on this in the first place.

Hard to decipher without knowing all that's going on at the other end of the various colored wires. It might also be complicated by the fact that some drum switches have a different connection diagram. Check the second-to-last connection diagram in the URL I gave above, and you'll see how the "other" switch does its thing.
 
Canuck -

I guess the whole thing can get more and more confusing as you add components like contactors, etc. And then there's the issue of which wire number/color goes where and does what. I've looked at wiring diagrams from several Chinese tools, and the lack of detail (especially the internal operation of the contactors) can rapidly add to the fun. Many times, all they'll show is terminal numbers/letters. Can you predict that a replacement component will use the same scheme? Let's roll the dice!

That said, contactors are necessary if you want to have pushbutton start/stop controls, if your lathe has a directional switch on the carriage, etc. My lathe is old enough that it had none of those, just a reverse-stop-forward switch on the headstock. I didn't want to buy a bunch of new stuff and tackle a redesign of the system - just hit the "easy button," get a heavy-duty replacement for the original switch, and get going.

You'll notice lots of detail on my schematics. I did take the time to do enough tracing that I could understand where each wire went and what each terminal did. Lots of work up front, but if I ever have to get in there again, I'll have something complete to refer to.

I've also learned, from this discussion, Shadowdog500's post, and some additional info I found on the interweb, that a goodly number of Chinese 115/230 volt 6-wire motors seem to be wired (and numbered) similarly (colors optional). Wires 1-3 and 2-4 are the two run windings, parallel for 115 volts, series for 230 volts; 5-6 are the start winding. Each individual winding likes 115 volts. You get reversal by either leaving the run winding connections the same and inverting the polarity of the start winding (as I did), or by keeping the start winding the same and inverting the run winding. The latter scheme is shown in the last diagram at ​http://www.justanswer.com/electrical/7qqvn-trying-wire-dayton-2x440a-drum-switch-foward-reverse.html



Hard to decipher without knowing all that's going on at the other end of the various colored wires. It might also be complicated by the fact that some drum switches have a different connection diagram. Check the second-to-last connection diagram in the URL I gave above, and you'll see how the "other" switch does its thing.



Thanks for the reply and all the information. I should be able to sort things out from here.

Canuck75
 
GAWWWW-LEEEEE youse guys!!! I JUST got done writing up the text for what I was going to start as a new thread here, regarding that very same Dayton drum switch and a 230 volt reversing motor. And here ya done got it started already!!!

Anyway, the following is the ORIGINAL text and photos I was about to post. It's posed as a question, because I'm not absolutely sure my "new" solution is valid. If it sounds like it's just a slight bit off-topic, my apologies. I'm just a bit too lazy to re-write the whole durn thing:

== == == == == == == == == == == == ==

About a month ago I bought a vintage (1990) Grizzly DF1224G/G1003 12x24 lathe. As purchased, it would run OK in reverse but only buzz when switched to forward. When I got it home I checked the existing drum-type switch, and it just about fell apart in my hands. The 2HP motor had been wired for 115 volts, which spec’d out at 18 amps - no wonder the switch was toast!

I bought a new Dayton 2X440 drum switch and started puzzling out how to wire it. The data plate inside the motor, as well as what diagrams I could find in the manual, called for connecting the two run coils (motor wires 1-3 and 2-4) in series, and connecting the start coil (motor wires 5-6) between the common point (2&3) and L2. To reverse the motor, the 5-6 leads are interchanged. The photo (thanks to Chris, aka Shadowdog500) shows a similar (3/4HP) motor’s connection data plate.

View attachment 82189

Unfortunately, the above scheme requires 6 conductors between the motor and the switch enclosure (1, 2-3, 4, 5, 6, and ground). Six conductor cables are about as easy to find as hen’s teeth! In addition, because the Dayton switch has only 6 contacts, there’s no choice but to leave L1 connected to the motor at all times! Yes, I did mount a local service disconnect ... but nevertheless, leaving a motor connected to a live wire gives me the willies. See schematic below.

View attachment 82190

Recently I found another Grizzly 12x24 lathe manual to download, and it had what I *think* is a viable alternative. The idea is to permanently wire one end of the start winding (5) to the common point between the run windings (2-3), then switch the other end of the start winding (6) between L1 and L2.

In theory, the common point (2-3-5) will be at neutral potential, so the start winding, whose other end is switched to either L1 or L2, will always be seeing just a nominal 115 volts (then go to zero when the centrifugal switch kicks out).

The nice thing about this scheme is that (1) it only requires 4 conductors between the motor and switch box, and (2) BOTH L1 and L2 are safely disconnected when the switch is set to the center position.

View attachment 82191

My question for any motor electricians here is: Am I OK on this? What might I be missing?

PS - The data sheet that came with the Dayton drum switch was absolutely no joy. Note that both of the schematics for “Single Phase” and “Induct. Repulsion” indicate a continuous connection between one side of the power line and the motor.

View attachment 82192

Thanks!


hman

Out of curiosity I looked at my SB lathe again to stretch my memory back to 1975 on how I set up the FWD/REV wiring. The lathe had a Westinghouse switch/motor/control panel for 550V 3ph power. I've only ever had 115/230V 1ph so I was delighted to discover that the contactor operating solenoids (blue covers at the bottom) used 115V 1ph 60hz power. After finding out how the contactor circuits worked, all the motor wires were extended and brought back to this box, then hooked up the same on each block except the two reversing wires being switched on the second block. The FWD/REV switch buttons on the front of the lathe only operate the appropriate solenoid which then close the circuits on that contactor block. As I remember it this was easy to do because the 2 blocks make 8 circuits available. There is an extra one on the left end of each block as well, so a total of 10 really.

If one could find such a panel cheap in the scrap yards somewhere it would easily solve a lot of the problems discussed in this forum. The cheapest FWD/REV drum switch would then suffice to control the contactor blocks. Of note is that when the lathe is turned OFF there is no power on any of the motor leads period!

If I could find one of these for my mill I would grab it in a heartbeat.


IMG_6731.jpg

Canuck75

IMG_6731.jpg
 
Last edited:
Back
Top